Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:00 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
I train for steady to WSF and accomplish it well in controlled settings. While hunting wild upland birds over the course of a long season I do my best to not let my dog backslide past Steady to Wing. (Waterfowl hunting is different and far easier to maintain a complete steady to fall standard of performance while hunting.)


Yup, tough to do. Shooting a bird is never important to me. The dog is. I'll pass up shooting a bird any day of the week to keep a dog trained. But, different things are important to different people. Kills me to watch a dog back slide I've worked on since a pup. Can't do it.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Willie T » Sat Dec 07, 2019 7:01 pm

If you train it out of the box and never let the genie out of the bottle it becomes a conditioned response and becomes the way a dog rolls. If you want the dog to go early saying it’s name accomplishes that. My question is how do you deal with what happens at the bird when hunting multiple breaking dogs? Or do you let it go?

Watching a talented brace run that respect each other’s points by backing and have the self discipline to honor the dog released for the retrieve is a thing of beauty.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:13 pm

Absolutely. Hunting multiple breaking dogs is a nightmare. All in all, being steady throughout is best. It allows you to choose which dog to send, which bird to retrieve, and rids you of the problem of a dog busting other birds until you've reloaded. I do train that way personally (and I can enforce it), but it requires a fair amount of maintenance and right now it's hard to get my puppy experience at the same time. Glad to see there are those that can walk the talk!
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Willie T » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:33 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Absolutely. Hunting multiple breaking dogs is a nightmare. All in all, being steady throughout is best. It allows you to choose which dog to send, which bird to retrieve, and rids you of the problem of a dog busting other birds until you've reloaded. I do train that way personally (and I can enforce it), but it requires a fair amount of maintenance and right now it's hard to get my puppy experience at the same time. Glad to see there are those that can walk the talk!


Bruce, the first year can be trying and I won’t claim otherwise.... especially if you have a lot of dog. I think that is the biggest reason many choose to ignore or waffle on that facet of training.

Edit to add: if the dogs came that way I think it is something we would all like.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:32 pm

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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:02 am

Willie T wrote:If you train it out of the box and never let the genie out of the bottle it becomes a conditioned response and becomes the way a dog rolls. If you want the dog to go early saying it’s name accomplishes that. My question is how do you deal with what happens at the bird when hunting multiple breaking dogs? Or do you let it go?

Watching a talented brace run that respect each other’s points by backing and have the self discipline to honor the dog released for the retrieve is a thing of beauty.
Willie


Willie T,

I wasn't clear if you were asking me or not. I can stop Spud with a verbal "Whoa" at any time. We worked on Backing at a broke dog clinic at Perfection Kennel but he needs more opportunities to solidify it. In the Clinic he was 100% reliable to stand until released to retrieve including watching the other dog retrieve more times than he was allowed to do so. To work on Backing further I will need to invest in a backing dummy and electronics. I felt my efforts were better directed to more advanced Retriever work last summer and we spent our time there. May circle back to this subject some this coming training season, but I think I am getting a pup and I am archery hunting Elk in September 2020 so it is going to be a very busy summer preparing a puppy, myself, my archery equipment, farming...

The practical problem of stopping a dog with a verbal Whoa while hunting is that Human voice is often just the information wild birds need to vacate. You will loose far more opportunities to shoot educated public lands roosters by using your voice to dog handle/train/correct while hunting than you ever will by a dog taking off to retrieve one you have already shot. So either your dog is already trained or it isn't. Puppies of course are different in terms of realistic expectations for the need and benefit of training while hunting.

Spud is trained until he isn't on this specific subject of Steady to Fall while hunting wild upland birds. He excels at tracking, relocating and pointing pheasants and recovering them after the shot. He will break at the shot when birds fall. I am happy with the overall experiences and success we have is the full disclosure on Spud and I.

I hunt during the week alone mostly and when we hunt with other dogs, Spud does his own thing and mostly ignores the other dogs. Spud hunts alone maybe 25 days for every day there is another dog on the ground with him. He ignores the other dog so much that unless the dog is completely visible he most often does not even notice them on point until I Whoa him. Liver colored shorthairs in heavy cover don't stand out easily... Finding folks with the time and resources to travel is not easy, as well as per your question, there needs to be a level of compatibility between dogs. No one I have run across around here has a dog trained to any where near the level of WSF and I avoid hunting with un trained dogs.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby orhunter » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:02 am

Gonehuntin: "There are just too many benefits to it and no downside." That's why in a nutshell. Just because some of us don't do it doesn't mean we shouldn't.

Haven't watched the Soft Force yet but will study it closely. Might be more my style. A person has to be comfortable with the method to do it right.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Doc E » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:18 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
My take on FF is that when Dennis Voigt, Bill Hillman, and the British say it's needed then I'll start doing it. Evan Graham's technique is lauded as the way to go .... but remember that he dedicated his FF "SmartFetch" book to a dog that he had on the FF table for two months before she reached for a dummy! How "Smart" is that?


Hillmann does FF.
Graham does not use a table. He (on the dog you mentioned) started out on a table --- then he saw how un-needed a table is and that's why he wrote "SmartFetch".

If you go to one of the Dakotas, ask a couple Veterinarians how often they xray dogs that have shotgun pellets in them.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:57 am

There will always be a need to get reliable mouth habits for retrieves. The traditional FF methods involve aversive training measures where to some extent the dog is left trying to figure out what you want while you’re inflicting a level of discomfort. It’s hard to learn under these conditions. IMO a better way is to teach fetch, hold, and drop by PR using food and praise and once these commands are learned solidly the ecollar May be introduced to proof it, same as with any other command. This is quite easy and novices can easily pick up the skills. Your dog will not have a better relationship with you or be more stable in the long run by other means. The process is evolving but that’s that’s my prediction anyway.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:38 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:There will always be a need to get reliable mouth habits for retrieves. The traditional FF methods involve aversive training measures where to some extent the dog is left trying to figure out what you want while you’re inflicting a level of discomfort. It’s hard to learn under these conditions. IMO a better way is to teach fetch, hold, and drop by PR using food and praise and once these commands are learned solidly the ecollar May be introduced to proof it, same as with any other command. This is quite easy and novices can easily pick up the skills. Your dog will not have a better relationship with you or be more stable in the long run by other means. The process is evolving but that’s that’s my prediction anyway.


Bruce, I really don't think you've ever seen anyone that's very good at FF do it. Yes, force is applied. Only after the dog knows each step. If you see someone make a dog scream by pinching it's ear with no preparatory work done first, the guy is a freakin' idiot or a sadist. There is NO reason to abuse a dog during FF.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Dec 08, 2019 2:54 pm

https://youtu.be/vmv5I-yA5Xk

Here's a pup I finished a couple years ago. Does this dog in any way seem abused and pressured?
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Willie T » Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:41 pm

Just a good discussion AG. I suspect like me, you train and run your dog how you feel best serves what you do with him. Like you, I think I am more successful hunting in silence. Whether hunting one or multiple dogs. I also think a talented brace that hunts well together is more effective on running birds than a talented dog hunting solo. As for FF I also suspect our overall approach with our current dogs was more the same than different, although I used no treats to teach. If I were to post a video of Cricket prior to FF the hue and cry from many on this site would be to ask why I force fetched him.
Maybe we will cross paths in the field one day while I still have this dog. At the end of the day I honestly don’t believe you would conclude that being steady hinders his ability to recover down birds. I also think you would approve of the simplicity it brings to hunting him with other dogs. (Which is something I do) What ever the outcome, with our shared passion for good dog work and bird hunting, it would likely be a good time. As I said earlier, I don’t cast stones at the way another trains or runs their dog. Likewise I do my own thing as it suits me and my dog with the end goal of what I feel is most effective for the things we get into.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby orhunter » Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:35 pm

Doesn't fetch mean hold? Two words, same result. I'm kind of sensitive to redundancy. Like telling a dog to come when it's already coming toward you. Or to sit when it's already sitting. Or to say stay when it's already been told whoa. We all know the old truism to give the command only once. In the video, how many times does he say hold?
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:29 pm

orhunter wrote:Doesn't fetch mean hold? Two words, same result. I'm kind of sensitive to redundancy. Like telling a dog to come when it's already coming toward you. Or to sit when it's already sitting. Or to say stay when it's already been told whoa. We all know the old truism to give the command only once. In the video, how many times does he say hold?


The commands are not the same and are taught separately. FETCH ALWAYS demands motion. Hold is static.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Willie T » Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:21 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
orhunter wrote:Doesn't fetch mean hold? Two words, same result. I'm kind of sensitive to redundancy. Like telling a dog to come when it's already coming toward you. Or to sit when it's already sitting. Or to say stay when it's already been told whoa. We all know the old truism to give the command only once. In the video, how many times does he say hold?


The commands are not the same and are taught separately. FETCH ALWAYS demands motion. Hold is static.


What GH said. To expand on that: when teaching advanced handling, casting is built by overlaying the various casts over and expanding on the action Command of fetch to go get it. Hold refines what the dog does with his mouth once he has the bird until commanded to leave it on the delivery. In effect simplifying by breaking down the retrieve to the basic parts for clearer communication between handler and dog. So hold and leave are taught first. then when you teach fetch there is no confusion in communicating what you want the dog to do with the bird as you shape the delivery you want in the conditioned retrieve. It does not sound like a big deal, till the dog spits out a cripple or decides to change birds. It allows the handler to help a dog succeed.
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