Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby JONOV » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:52 am

AMack2282 wrote:Ok so I've read the comments on this subject. I actually do breed these Griffiondors. I have Master titled my female Lab, and Titled my Griffon. This mix is very versatile, intelligent, energetic, and loyal. I have champion lines in the sire and dams lines. This breed will go for a lot longer than my labs will, or the Griffon. I have been able to do all sorts of things with this breed. Everything from pointing, retrieving, service dog training, and so much more. I take very good care of all my dogs and all have been tested for eyes, elbows, hips, and ears. I'm not a backyard breeder! I'm creating a breed of 2 amazing breeds. So many of our top breeds today are made up of mix breeds. So who are you to judge anyone for doing the same thing that was done to your PUREBRED. There is no such thing as one purebred dog especially in hunting breeds! So get over yourselves, and have a more open mind. I am also in the process of getting this mix into the AKC regestery as an acceptable breed for hunt test, field trials and much more.

What do your dogs bring to the table that a lab, or Griff, doesn't?
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:16 pm

AMack2282 wrote:Ok so I've read the comments on this subject. I actually do breed these Griffiondors. I have Master titled my female Lab, and Titled my Griffon. This mix is very versatile, intelligent, energetic, and loyal. I have champion lines in the sire and dams lines. This breed will go for a lot longer than my labs will, or the Griffon. I have been able to do all sorts of things with this breed. Everything from pointing, retrieving, service dog training, and so much more. I take very good care of all my dogs and all have been tested for eyes, elbows, hips, and ears. I'm not a backyard breeder! I'm creating a breed of 2 amazing breeds. So many of our top breeds today are made up of mix breeds. So who are you to judge anyone for doing the same thing that was done to your PUREBRED. There is no such thing as one purebred dog especially in hunting breeds! So get over yourselves, and have a more open mind. I am also in the process of getting this mix into the AKC regestery as an acceptable breed for hunt test, field trials and much more.


How do you define "go for a lot longer"? Running, retrieving, both?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:27 pm

Not much on "mutts". Probably more expensive than the real thing. Crock of crap.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby Willie T » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:41 pm

Jstruck wrote:I’m new to dog ownership in general, exploring it. What would be bad about that mix?


Jstruck, the biggest isssue I see is nobody knows enough about the cross you speak of to advise you with any certainty including those who may be breeding them.

AMack2282 wrote:Ok so I've read the comments on this subject. I actually do breed these Griffiondors. I have Master titled my female Lab, and Titled my Griffon. This mix is very versatile, intelligent, energetic, and loyal. I have champion lines in the sire and dams lines. This breed will go for a lot longer than my labs will, or the Griffon. I have been able to do all sorts of things with this breed. Everything from pointing, retrieving, service dog training, and so much more. I take very good care of all my dogs and all have been tested for eyes, elbows, hips, and ears. I'm not a backyard breeder! I'm creating a breed of 2 amazing breeds. So many of our top breeds today are made up of mix breeds. So who are you to judge anyone for doing the same thing that was done to your PUREBRED. There is no such thing as one purebred dog especially in hunting breeds! So get over yourselves, and have a more open mind. I am also in the process of getting this mix into the AKC regestery as an acceptable breed for hunt test, field trials and much more.


AMack, there is much more to developing a new breed than a two dog gene pool. With your current status, as I understand it, you have no means to test whether or not the traits and characteristics you are trying to produce run true in progeny subsequent generations. Developing a new breed is a noble endeavor. With all due respect, crossing two dogs does not come close to accomplishing that feat. If you are truly trying to accomplish that, it will most likely take a lifetime of work and ridicule before you have the possibility of proving the attributes and characteristics of a new breed well enough to gain a following and ultimately acceptance from those who covet the sporting breeds.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby orhunter » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:11 pm

They aren't a true breed till you can breed the mix to one of the same and get the same dog out of that breeding. It didn't work with the PP and it probably won't work with the Griffiondor. That's why the PP is 3/4 EP and 1/4 Water Pudel. 50/50 doesn't work. I generation brings nothing to the table.

I can't imagine these mutts can outrun a well bred Griffon. The true test of speed and endurance is Chukar hunting and if these creatures have never hunted the devil birds, they remain untested in the field.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:13 pm

I've always felt when you cross two great breeds, like the Griff and the Lab, you enhance the traits of neither but lessen the traits of both.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby bwjohn » Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:04 pm

I really don't have dog in this fight, pun intended. Seeing that I own neither a Lab or Griff.

But in general, it takes a lot more than one person breeding two dogs together to get any type of a dog. And to think that out of a first generation cross that you would be able to reproduce a type of dog is just wrong. You may have had some success and like the dogs you breed, mostly b/c you breed them and you can not be objective.

There are breed clubs that have elaborate testing systems, field and conformation, and those dogs have been selective breed for a hundred years with countless numbers of litters and still have issues with producing consistent coats, desire and any number of other characteristics. Just look at your own breed of the Griff to see these inconsistencies, and almost all breeds wirehair or not have their own issues. Not to mention the immense amount of culling that went on in the early formation of breeds. Judging from your post I sincerely doubt that you have the heart to do that, I don't and hope that you don't as well.

Many breeders get mad when people such as yourself, come along and think they are going to do this great cross and just light the world on fire and that everyone should bow down to your brilliant idea of putting these two dogs together. When in alls seriousness it would take a lifetime to develop this with a lot more dogs than I am sure you are willing to own and work with.

Not to mention, a lot of people, again not necessarily you b/c I do not know you, charge a huge premium for their "rare" breed. It is not a breed, it is a cross.

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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby ryanr » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:21 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Not much on "mutts". Probably more expensive than the real thing. Crock of crap.


Exactly my thoughts as well. The guy has a good dog from one breed and a good dog from a different breed and he let them breed. That's not suddenly a new breed of dog, well only to a backyard breeder likely selling overly priced mutts to naive buyers.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby JONOV » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:45 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:I've always felt when you cross two great breeds, like the Griff and the Lab, you enhance the traits of neither but lessen the traits of both.

To quote an obedience trainer friend of mine who makes her living going to peoples homes to train OB for dogs, "There is nothing that can be improved on in labs or poodles that is accomplished by mixing the two of them." She gets a lot of calls to train Doodle mixes.

My buddy has a Lab/GSP mix. Really, an instance of a scatterbrained GSP owner that let her bitch out in a half acre fenced yard unmonitored, and the neighbor's lab wasn't going to let a wall stop him (tell that to President Trump :D ) Its a fine dog, but not superior to a lab, and not superior to a GSP, though she does beat all the other labs in a footrace.

The only time I've heard of guys mixing dogs to their advantage is houndsmen that mix in GSP's or EP's into their deerhounds, etc, to get more run.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:53 am

AMack2282 wrote:Ok so I've read the comments on this subject. I actually do breed these Griffiondors. I have Master titled my female Lab, and Titled my Griffon. This mix is very versatile, intelligent, energetic, and loyal. I have champion lines in the sire and dams lines. This breed will go for a lot longer than my labs will, or the Griffon. I have been able to do all sorts of things with this breed. Everything from pointing, retrieving, service dog training, and so much more. I take very good care of all my dogs and all have been tested for eyes, elbows, hips, and ears. I'm not a backyard breeder! I'm creating a breed of 2 amazing breeds. So many of our top breeds today are made up of mix breeds. So who are you to judge anyone for doing the same thing that was done to your PUREBRED. There is no such thing as one purebred dog especially in hunting breeds! So get over yourselves, and have a more open mind. I am also in the process of getting this mix into the AKC regestery as an acceptable breed for hunt test, field trials and much more.


If you're thinking you'll get some superior animal out of the cross then you should read this book: "Dogs" by Raymond and Lorna Coppinger. It's a definitive work on the origins of our current working breeds and how they differ from each other, the "village" dogs the world over, and what happens in these types of crosses.

Also, just wondering about the fellow out west who's been crossing Labradors with GSPs and claims they're wonderful (Wendells?). Anyone aware of how this has proceeded? I would think it would likely be a better cross than a GWP to a Lab and closer to the pudelpointer construction ( 85% pointer x 15% water pudel).
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby orhunter » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:43 pm

Bruce... That's the Wesslpointer. I met him a few years ago while at a test, quite a character. He lives next door to Bob Farris' duck lake. I don't know for sure but I sort of think all the dogs are first generation. Hybrid vigor. Could be wrong on that.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby JONOV » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:17 pm

orhunter wrote:Bruce... That's the Wesslpointer. I met him a few years ago while at a test, quite a character. He lives next door to Bob Farris' duck lake. I don't know for sure but I sort of think all the dogs are first generation. Hybrid vigor. Could be wrong on that.

I'd be interested to see what an F2 coat looks like. F1 is pretty much half and half between a lab and a GSP.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby JTracyII » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:59 pm

Mr. Wessel still breeds them as I was curious the other day and emailed him. He has some litters coming up. I emailed him only to see if he was still at it. The Wesselpointer is discussed in Craigs book, and Wessel says these dogs breed true now. In that email I asked him what other breeders also breed the Wesselpointer and he did not respond to that question. Just said he had two litters coming up. I was asking about other breeders because if a guy wanted to create a new breed that would exist beyond their lifetime they would undoubtedly need some other breeders helping so that after his passing they could take the mantle and build on his work. I don't know of any other breeders of these dogs. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby mtbirder » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:36 pm

Hello, I came on here briefly some years ago. Been away.
I have an 11+ year old what I prefer to call a "griffador".
She's the product of an unplanned breeding of a pedigreed female Grif and and AKC Choc Lab. She has been an absolute joy to hunt over for 11 seasons now. Rock solid points, goes into heavy cover like nobody's business, cold hearty, water loving, excellent tracker of wounded birds, she's got many spectacular retrieves under her belt. Summed up - I have been the unlikely and undeserving recipient of an absolutely priceless bird dog that I will never have the exact like of again. She's had both ACL's done (TPLO 7-8 years old) and still hunting tirelessly at 11 years old, tough as hell.
I fully understand I may have just gotten lucky with how she turned out. I'll take the luck
I have no dog (pun intended) in the purist fight. I also happen to have a NAHVDA papered grif form a great Montana breeder. She is a 1'st place award winner Natural Ability. Although not interested in NAHVDA, I support it's purpose and intent. I understand the issues true bird dog people have with unsanctioned breeding.
I AM a true bird dog guy - been hunting MT birds since 1984, and MN birds before that beginning in 1974.
I would eagerly and gleefully get another wpgxlab cross if I knew the breeder, which I probably never will - as my girl came from a close friend of mine here in MT.
I am saw this discussion and am actually someone who has (extremely and wonderful) experience here.
I have countless photos of our adventures and her exploits if any interest.
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Re: Griffiondor (WPG x Lab) a myth?

Postby orhunter » Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:11 pm

Mtbirder:

I think we'd all like to see photos. Thanks for your post. Good stuff.
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