Perfect Fetch

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Perfect Fetch

Postby Hink » Mon Jul 25, 2022 4:58 pm

Has anyone used the Perfect Fetch from Perfection Kennels to ff your dog. I’ve always used the Dobbs method. How does it differ?
I’ve purchased the Perfect Here it’s very well done.

Thanks
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:56 pm

I have used the approach laid out in the Perfect Retrieve for my last two GWPs. Went well with both dogs.
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:21 am

I haven't watch it in a while and he may have modified it, but both he and Dobbs skip the jowl pinch, ear pinch, and stick and go directly to the collar from hold. Or they did. I don't like that. Building a dog is like building a house. Skimp on the foundation and it can develop cracks later. I do think that for V dog's, I would not advise an amateur to stick fetch. On the whole, The Perfection Program is the best out there ON DVD. There are other good programs in book form. The best way to train a V dog, in MY opinion, is to obedience train and FF using the Evan Graham Smart Fetch DVD then do the field and bird work using perfection. The integration of the two programs is seamless.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jul 26, 2022 2:44 pm

Hink, I missed the part of your question which asked how does it differ.

The Perfect Retrieve encourages you to first develop the natural retrieve of your pup. One section of the DVDs is devoted to that. As you learned in the Perfect Here, you also need a well trained recall command, which is key in clean retrieving work, especially when birds come into play.

Then it teaches the pup to Hold, then to open its mouth to "Fetch", then teaching the dog to reach for the object, then teaching it to move for the object, then teaching it to pick it up off the table, then the ground.

Then it overlays the ecollar on the already trained "Fetch" command. Teaches the dog it controls and turns off the stimulation via swift compliance to the already trained command.

It does not use an ear pinch.

It stops there. It does not include any of the downstream retriever training methods of Force to Pile, or handling work.

The objective of the Perfect Retrieve is to train a dog to retrieve on command and deliver to hand, including birds, with good mouth manners.

I have used other methods to advance my dogs past that level of work e.g. Force to Pile, teaching blinds, teaching handling, longer marks, some degree of lines and water force.

I used an ear pinch with the GWPs I trained prior to my last two which I did not use an ear pinch on. I would say I saw no difference in the end product between those various dogs.

I took this video a year ago. Had not worked that dog on FTP for a long time when I took that. Just wanted to see how it would go. He is happy and doing the work, which works for me. He is highly reliable to recover downed birds while hunting, land or water, all types of birds and waterfowl. He was trained with the Perfect Retrieve method using no ear pinch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFB4Im-SsiA

Same dog retrieving a big boar coon (as in over 20lbs) that he treed and I shot out to him while hunting squirrels. He was wooling the coon when it hit the ground, I told him to fetch it up and he did, ...

Image

The Wife threw out a pigeon egg from the coop yesterday into the tall cover CRP. Just moments ago my youngest dog Tess was somewhere in the CRP while the older dog and I were on the front porch. I toned her to come to me and she did. She had the unbroken pigeon egg in her mouth. Dropped it in my hand when I asked for it. The older dog has done the same thing. Speaks to good mouth manners.

Image
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby Hink » Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:44 am

Thanks AG and Gonehuntin

This is the first pup I’ve had without the natural retrieve all my other dogs loved to retrieve. Since it builds on that I’ll try this method.

I’ve heard the term force to the pile, but don’t know what it is can you explain this? Is it necessary? I don’t do any dog games besides running a NA test for my breeder, just hunt.

Thanks again Hink
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:58 pm

Hink wrote:Thanks AG and Gonehuntin

This is the first pup I’ve had without the natural retrieve all my other dogs loved to retrieve. Since it builds on that I’ll try this method.

I’ve heard the term force to the pile, but don’t know what it is can you explain this? Is it necessary? I don’t do any dog games besides running a NA test for my breeder, just hunt.

Thanks again Hink


First, force to pile as absolutely not necessary unless you are competing at high levels. I don't even want to get into that with you. I do feel it is a requisite for teaching blind retrieves.

You have to understand something about the retrieve. If your pup runs out after and object, picks it up and drops it, he has a normal amount of natural retrieve. The forced retrieve does force SOME dog's to retrieve but they are rarely happy once you do it. They will retrieve but many times blink a bird and keep half heartedly looking, never picking the bird up. They always look like they've been beaten while they're searching.

What FF really does is to give a polished retrieve, that is a fast pick up, firm carry, delivery to hand and prompt release when commanded. Sounds like what you are really interested in is the pup delivering to hand, which you usually don't need in NA. The only retrieve they make is the water retrieve. Some judge require the retrieve to hand, some don't. Let me clarify by saying I would never own a dog that didn't retrieve to hand, so I PERSONALLY consider it a necessity.

If you are new to this and don't want to get into the whole FF program, all you need is the force hold and carry. That's all a hunter really needs. Most hunters can get by with a simple hold and jowl fetch. No worry about destroying a dog's desire with that method. I don't like, and I WON'T skip steps. So these trainers that go from hold to fetch using the collar, no jowl or ear are headed for problems. Or MAY be headed for problems. It's just something I would never do. Does it work, going right from hold to collar-fetch? Yes. Is there a back up if it doesn't? Yes. Start all over.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:52 pm

Hink,

There are a great deal of free videos on youtube that I would point you at relative to Force To Pile so that you can learn more about it. Never hurts to learn whether you pursue it with your current pup or not. Bill Hillman and Freddy King are two that are excellent.

Whether you need to pursue that training with your pup depends on your goals. Once I took my current two GWPs through the Perfect Retrieve program I moved to the simple FTP drill I showed you in the video link. I had just ran the young dog through it and then ran my older dog through it. It was training for the young dog and simple review for the older dog.

It is pretty common to have a need to send a dog on a blind retrieve while hunting, both upland and waterfowl.

In the photo below my Spud dog had gone on point in the tall thick cattails beside that pond. It was 15 degrees and the pond was rapidly freezing up and the consistency of slushy ice. I went into the cattails towards Spud buried on point ahead per my Garmin GPS, pheasants starting flushing all around me. Spud remained steady to flush buried in the cattails. I picked out a big rooster, shot once and dumped him into the pond. Spud had no mark or clue which of a dozen pheasants that had bailed out I had shot at, or if one fell. I started to bull my way through the cattails so I could send Spud but encountered water and retreated before I went in over the top of my leather boots. I walked around to the dam where I had an open line to the floating rooster, called Spud to me, sat him at heel, lined him up on the floating rooster and sent him. Took this photo with a telephoto lens. An example of why I teach simple Blind Retrieves for hunting.

Image

I also run all my dogs through a NAVHDA Utility Test and so I do the FTP work to teach them to head to the white bucket target to retrieve a bumper as seen in the video. That then becomes the target I use to teach the dog to cross water and retrieve a duck near the white bucket. Eventually I take the bucket away and then eventually I place the duck further away so the dog has to search on the far side when it arrives. It is the foundation of my training for the Duck Search component of the Utility Test. Down stream from that I teach basic handling.

Training my dogs in this way has absolutely benefitted our recovery of game while hunting so I do not view as optional, but you may. Just trying to helpful and share what has worked very well for me and my dogs.

Assertions that you have nothing to fall back on when problems occur if you have not pinched your dog's ear somewhere in the chain of training are false in my experience.

You have trained the Fetch command and then overlaid the ecollar on the command. Your recourse is to use the ecollar, which is what nearly all trainers do anyway at the point in training as it is far more timely and effective than trying to get ahold of a dog's ear in the field.

If you view the Bill Hillman videos you will see a guy who has been wildly success with Retrievers and has not used the ear pinch for a very long time now. He does use an ecollar. Many successful trainers are doing the same.

Best of Luck
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby Hink » Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:56 am

I wouldn’t say I’m a rookie but no where near where you guys are at. I’ve ff 3 dogs two of my own and one for a friend.

Gonehuntin

I agree I would never have a dog that doesn’t retrieve to hand. You have me thinking my last dog didn’t come out of ff the same as the other two. He would blind and continue to search as you described. He grew out of it but for the first year he he would blink 25% of the time.

AG

I’ve watched the Freddy King video on force to the pile I now understand. If I could get my pup to level your dogs are at that would be great.

I’m not going to ff until next spring so I have time.

Thanks to both of you
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Re: Perfect Fetch

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:41 pm

Hink,
Dont cruise by here much anymore. But saw this and thought you needed a correction from what you have been told.

Dobbs method actually does a more thorough job of FF than Grahams. Not going to go into it now but you can search the forums here, Ive rebutted that thought quite effectively. Gonehuntins comments on the subject show he doesnt understand Dobbs process.

Ive not been able to watch any of the Perfections FF videos. Not going to buy it. So ill let you use your judgement on its effectiveness. Im somewhat familiar with Hillmans but have not used it on a dog so cant really offer any good advice.

And good luck with pup!
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