GWP

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GWP

Postby gopokes » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:01 pm

I'm currently a gp guy looking hard at wirehairs for my next pup - I know there's a breed alliance that is breeding dogs based on test results. Could anyone tell me if these breeders are putting out a similar dog (temperament, range, size, confromation coat, etc) or are there different breeding objectives from kennel to kennel? I'm primarily an upland hunter so my priorities are in a great field dog as opposed to a waterfowl/fur dog. I appreciate the string retrieving instincts of the continentals and currently own a NAVHDA bred shorthair which does this and all field work well enough, but I've got a wandering eye towards the wires. Are the alliance folks overlapping with field trial gwps in their breeding program? Most seem to have a lot of VDD dogs in their pedigree as well. I don't think a pure VDD dog is for me based on the ones I've seen which are larger, more solidly built, and closer working than my super nimble gsp. My gsp loves fur (I don't), so I think that's just part of the deal with versatiles. Where should I look in the breed for a smaller 45-50lb field dog that covers some decent ground? Not looking for an AA dog - just a 200 +/- yard dog with a lot of point and retrieve. Looking for a short coat with minmal/moderate furnishings to keep things low maintenance and reasonably heat tolerant like the gsp.

As you can tell I want to approximate the gsp that I have but hopefully move to a generally mellower dog. If I find that holy grail in a GSP of mellow and talented, I'll never stray - but it's just been tough to get that balance so far - Sample size - 2 dogs - very well-proven bloodlines (hustler, sharp shooter, multiple VCs, etc). Still great dogs.
Think I can find a gsp level hunter with an off switch more easily with a wire?
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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:53 pm

Don’t know what/where you hunt so range is tough to put a finger on. Like any breed, there are variations within the breed so you’d need to ask the individual breeder what to expect in the conditions you hunt.

Maybe a Griffon or Pudelpointer would suit you.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Nov 16, 2021 9:36 am

gopokes,

I am a GWP guy for 4 decades. You can absolutely find what you seek in a GWP with proper research. Yes there are Alliance breeders producing what you seek. Talk with them.

There is a lot of information on the two GWPs I have now, on this board. Search on my posts. Both have the kind of coat, athleticism and off switch you seek.

Both of them are from purposeful breedings which blended German Genetics and FT line Genetics. Both dogs have DC AFC champions in their 3rd generation pedigrees and adjust their ranges to the cover and birds being hunted.

While hunting Chukars/Huns in October this year, my Spud dog ranged over 500 yards at times and Tess got out over 400. They spent more time in the 2-300 yard range. Both dogs produced and held birds while out of sight in the 2-300 yard range many times on that trip. Put either one of them in dense CRP hunting pheasants and they will be 75-150 most of the time unless I am asking them to come in closer (which I can easily/quietly do using the ecollar tone button I have trained them to).

Smart dogs that quickly adapt to the task at hand. Highly successful on wide variety of tasks, terrains and birds. Both excel after the shot as well. They are self driven to find game and do. Healthy and hardy, easily trained, early starting dogs.

First guy I would talk to is Kelly Jobes at Bone Point Kennel where my Spud dog came from. Kelly and his dogs are top notch. Kelly breeds for a dog just as you describe and produces quite few that meet it. Kelly ability and health tests his dogs for generations, but their foremost proving ground is hunting wild birds. If he breeds a dog it is a superior and versatile birddog both before and after the shot.

I have insights into others as well. PM me if you wish to discuss.
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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:14 am

I wish AG would clone Spud. I like everything about that dog. His mama is a sweetie. Had the pleasure of having her in the house for three or four months last year. She was easy to spoil. All of Kelly’s dogs take to spoiling rather well. Great temperament, born to hunt.

Good Griff’s have slightly less range than Spud and Tess, Pudelpointers about the same as Griffs. There is a huge variation in Griffs as not many breeders cater to hunters. Gotta be real careful with the breed.
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Re: GWP

Postby Dmog » Tue Nov 16, 2021 11:55 am

Check out AG's posts on Spud and Tess. Fine GWP as you described you are looking for. My experience with the Griffs in OK and KS, they are not as heat tolerant as the GWP's and the PP. I am assuming your an Okie by the handle...hope the Pokes down the Sooners this year!

If you get the wondering eye for the Pudelpointer, check out Rock Creeks dogs. They are just as you described your looking for.
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Re: GWP

Postby ryanr » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:53 pm

Talk to some breeders and ask them those questions about their breeding program.

As far as size, finding a 45-50lb GWP I think is going to be a little tough. Under 50lb is tough but you can find 50-55lbs. My female and her fellow female littermates are all about 48-53lbs. The 2 males were in the 60lb or so range. She's from an outstanding GWP Alliance kennel here in PA. One of her littermates had a litter and the dogs were are all in that 50-60lb range. If I breed my female, she will be bred to the same stud as her sister was, the breeding was that good.
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Re: GWP

Postby Highlander » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:21 am

The type of dog you are looking for will probably gonna come from the western hunters. The chukar dogs.
The Alliance might be the best bet.

One thing is that even between the VDD dogs there is a significant difference between the dogs in terms of size and looks that come from the western states, which mostly hunt chukars and the dogs that come from Midwest and Northeast grouse areas.
The difference is even more clear with the DK.
This is just based on my observation.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:17 pm

Yep. My first two GWPs came Boise, my last two came from Oregon and Montana. Not by accident.

Here is Spud on his last day hunting Chukars/Huns back in October. His tough feet, excellent conformation, serviceable coat and desire to find/point birds still driving him through the rocks looking for, finding and handling birds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z34MxX8nSYQ

I sent Kelly this video of Spud on his last day on his first trip out west for wild chukars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnpeuqqtZik

Kelly's response was "It's almost like he was bred for it". I still chuckle at that. Both his parent excel at wild chukars as did both of their parents ...

Here is Tess hunting Sage Grouse on her first trip on them in September. Both of her grandmothers are DC, FC, AFC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcQEc2saJ6Q
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Re: GWP

Postby Highlander » Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:04 am

Excellent @AverageGuy
I wish had that kind of places close by lol
This morning I got kicked out from a park training my dog on a drag :D

One good thing with relatively well known breeds is that you can pick a type of dog that suits you and your type hunting.
GWP and GSP are the best in that there are many types of dogs within the breed.

----
There is a guy who hosts Upchukar Podcast. He is names is Travis. He is on social media.
He has that kinda of a dog you are interested. Small and hardy GWP. White with brown patches. Only small beard and short hair.
One of his episodes he said that pup came from a breeder that exclusively breeds and hunts with chukar dogs.
Maybe it is worth reach him out on social media and ask about the breeder.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Nov 23, 2021 7:38 pm

Yes the Breeder of Travis' dog is also the Breeder of the Sire of my Tess.

The Sire of Travis' dog was Sired by the same Sire as my Spud dog, which came from Bone Point as mentioned earlier in the thread. In the heart of the best Chukar country in the nation from a Breeder who has been breeding Chukar dogs for over 20 years.
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Re: GWP

Postby gopokes » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:47 pm

Thanks for the input! What about coats in the Alliance dogs? I don't hunt a lot of waterfowl and spend much of the season in temps above 40 deg. Even my shorthair bogs down sometimes when we get around 60 deg. We can still manage with plenty of water and frequent breaks.
I wouldn't mind a shorter and/or less dense coat - it seems to me that the Alliance bred dogs are field dogs first and waterfowl second, so maybe that means a lower premium on coat?
Also, I was watching a dude on youtue that runs wires - I looked up his kennel - (not an alliance breeder) Some of his dogs look like shorthairs. Quite a lot of white in them, so I assume field trial lines infused with pointer blood at some point?
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Re: GWP

Postby orhunter » Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:12 am

A good dog will adapt to what you hunt. All it takes is a little nurturing in that direction. True, most decent pointing dog breeders what their dogs in homes that predominately hunt upland but certainly not exclusive. Lets say 30/70, waterfowl/upland. I wouldn't think any breeder would purposely attempt to breed dogs with open coats to better take the heat. Ya pretty much gotta take what you get and deal with it. Wouldn't want to speculate where/how those white Wirehairs came to be. They aren't common. Years a go there was a white, well known trial dog called Slick Nickel that sired many litters. The white gene is most likely still floating around from those litters as well as other sources. As far as one breed looking like something else, it's common. My current Griff looks like anything except a Griff. She could pass for a Wirehair/Draht and never stir up the slightest doubt.
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Re: GWP

Postby Highlander » Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:43 am

Some GWP do come out as shorthair and are almost identical to GSP. That's some gene mutations I suspect. VDD won't let that dog breed. I am sure the alliance is not a huge fun of those dogs as well.
Some individual, unaffiliated breeder might use a shorthair GWP for breeding but hard to say.

Why white in GWP is an issue? (unless you don't like it visually or you are a VDD member which you are not)
The blood of Pointer was brought into GWP in a few waves but it was far in the past. By this time the most of white color dominant GWP are quite pure breed now, unless somebody intentionally keeps crossing them with EP or even GSP (which is unlikely).
There is no bird dog breed that does not have a drop English Pointer blood, in a same way there are not much horse breeds that does not have a Thoroughbred blood in it.

The type of a dog you are looking for will eventually lead to a lighter dog. I would rather pay attention to correct morphology, angulations and mental soundness.
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Re: GWP

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Dec 10, 2021 5:45 pm

gopokes wrote:Thanks for the input! What about coats in the Alliance dogs? I don't hunt a lot of waterfowl and spend much of the season in temps above 40 deg. Even my shorthair bogs down sometimes when we get around 60 deg. We can still manage with plenty of water and frequent breaks.
I wouldn't mind a shorter and/or less dense coat - it seems to me that the Alliance bred dogs are field dogs first and waterfowl second, so maybe that means a lower premium on coat?
Also, I was watching a dude on youtue that runs wires - I looked up his kennel - (not an alliance breeder) Some of his dogs look like shorthairs. Quite a lot of white in them, so I assume field trial lines infused with pointer blood at some point?


I believe you are referring to Ghost Point. I am familiar with the guy and his videos but not with the breeding of his dogs.

Most all of the Alliance breeders hunt both upland birds and waterfowl and breed for a dual coat. Both of my GWPs can handle 60 degree weather reasonably well. It is pretty common for a slick or two to show up in a litter so pretty easy to request a dog with less dense coat from the breeder.

The white I see in the breed came from the folks chasing FT wins/titles. Draw your own conclusions ...
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Re: GWP

Postby fuzznut » Thu Dec 16, 2021 11:55 am

White has been in the breed ever since they came to the US. Some like it, some like the more traditional dark dogs.
Slick Nickle was a grandson of my white dog (a DC) whose parents, grand and great grandparents were all darker colored dogs. Nicks mother was a white bitch (a DC) who was bred to a white dog, thus his white.
Just a little history for you.
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