Dusty The DL

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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:43 pm

My Dusty turned year on 16th September... and on 17th we passed the HZP test with 178 score!

A hell of an achievement for year old pup with almost no actual hunting experience, and of course me being a first-time handler.
The test was run by the VDD-GNA in NJ, and I was able to get in due to some guys dropping the test. Otherwise, I would have driven to MN form CT. which would have been tough on me and on her as well. I am very grateful of the DD club for this opportunity. It was amazing to test next to the most talented and well-prepared dogs I ever seen. There was no dog that got lower than 10 in the natural abilities. One DD, the oldest of the dogs, got 11 in 4 or 5 subjects. This is huge!

Dusty got 10 in every subject, apart from a duck retrieve where she got confused with so many people, the judges, standing behind me. She went passed me and was looking at them with surprised face… and I called her, which was not good, and she eventually came to me while still looking at the judges. It appeared she was not willing to come to me. The problem was that since it is only me who she ever trained with she could not understand why so many people were around me. In the future I need to wok on this problem… The rest of the retrieves were all good.

Her tracking the dragged duck and rabbit was very good. She did it in 4 feet tall grass, which scared a hell out of me when I saw the drag field. I guess the relatively low scores in her VJP tracking subject motivated me to spend extra time and effort on tracks, and it paid off. She was very confident even though I never did 300 meters drag with her simply because I don’t have that big of a field near me. The largest I found was 250 yards.

The blind retrieve which was about 50 yards took her a few seconds to get it done.

This live duck search was where I almost thought that she failed. One thing is to read about the test and the one is to see it. Nothing I read was like what happened on the part of test. So long story short, I sent here in the water towards the track. She took off, and after swimming like 10 yards she turned left, sniffing upwards, and vanished in the tall vegetation and flooded timber. I could not see her for like 3 minutes and then I hear her splashing the water and barking, which meant she produced the duck and was chasing it. And She kept going for like 8 more minutes, until one judge in the boat got closer to the duck to shoot it, but the duck dove in and despaired. She spent “a bit too much time” untangling the duck scent and reestablish the track, but when she did the time was already up. I could have directed her, but I chose not to… Had she had more time and had she spent less time figuring out the scent spot where the duck disappeared it would have been an 11 search, but at the moment I was happy she came back. When the judge announced the score, I was quite surprised she got 10. One judge saw my face and he was like, son, she is doing great don’t worry.
She was only dog that gave a sound on the game, which was quite good.
At the NAVHDA clinic I am used to see here always working within my sight because the elevated spots around the pond and the way the trainers encouraged me to handle her.

Her field was awesome. I had no concerns about it. She was the fastest amongst the dogs and showed a way different style of the gait and pointing from the DDs, which for was some judges quite amusing and nice…
What’s next? I need to rest, and she needs to rest as well. I didn’t have a weekend this summer because of us training every day.

I put a year-old pup under a huge pressure and to some extant over trained her.
Next is to hunt with her as much as possible with relatively less rules and correction, at least for the first third of the season so she could loosen up a bit. Also, I need to find a training group around me. Training alone is hard and full of unexpected stuff, such as getting surprised with bunch of people next your retrieving stop.
After the season is done, we will start working on NAVHDA UT and VGP for the spring of 2023.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Dmog » Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:20 pm

Great Job and congrats...now enjoy the hunting and make those memories!
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Sep 23, 2021 3:41 pm

Congratulations to You and Dusty.

To your comment about putting lots of pressure and training on a young dog, my preference and order is to put enough training on the pup to have a great first season on wild game, get the fire completely lite and the skills fully engaged.

The standard of field work in an HZP is fortunately pretty low and therefore runs a low risk of taking too much out of a young dog.

After their first season I undertake the training for the UT, (which frankly has devolved into a big obedience test if the truth be known).

Hope You and Dusty have a great hunting season.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:04 am

Dmog.
Thank you!

AverageGuy
Thanks!

To your comment about putting lots of pressure and training on a young dog, my preference and order is to put enough training on the pup to have a great first season on wild game, get the fire completely lite and the skills fully engaged.


I think, given her training level, we will have good season. Fortunately she is a drive dog doesn't take too much to rebound back or recover from pressure.
She still needs to a training for s duck blind and steadiness after shot. I wont to take her on a goose hunt and hope get her polished.

One thing I have to confess about is that she has zero heel training. I have somewhat different attitude towards heel training. I almost ruined my Irish Setter's ability to be independent and go father out in open field. I may have done something wrong, but father that he thought he needed to be in within yards from me. I decided not do it before she got her field started correctly. And I don't regret it. She had widest and fastest pace at the test.
I will start it asap.

After their first season I undertake the training for the UT, (which frankly has devolved into a big obedience test if the truth be known).


It's interesting point you are making. Never thought about the UT this way. I have not run that test it yet. but attended a few as a volunteer and will be doing it again for this weekend for the South New England chapter.
I'll be paying more attention.

The standard of field work in an HZP is fortunately pretty low and therefore runs a low risk of taking too much out of a young dog.

Yeah... that portion of the test was the least concern for me. Even NAVHDA UPT demands more from a dog in that portion than HZP.
Last edited by Highlander on Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Fri Sep 24, 2021 11:05 am

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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Sep 24, 2021 12:07 pm

I teach heeling at an early age because I have so many situations where I need my pup to heel as we travel around the county, airing at public rest areas and staying in motels.

I give my pups daily time in the field to develop their search, use of nose, tracking, learning how and where to find game. We do one or two short bursts of recall training while in the field most days. I commonly require the pup to heel with me the last 75 yards back to the truck, which is of necessity parked along side a public road in most all cases, for obvious safety reasons.

I train the heel first in the house, then the yard, then finally in the field as just described. Search is developed separately and simultaneously as described above.

I have never had a pup's search stifled by teaching it to heel at an early age using the approach above.

I think overuse of recall in the field is far worse than a short burst of heeling a pup back to the truck after a run. It is recall I am most concerned about keeping in balance when developing a pup's bold search.

Lots of nervous handlers call their pups back when they have not seen them in awhile. I use GPS mini collars on my pups and avoid that.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Dmog » Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:50 pm

I also train heel at an early age and routinely heel back to the truck. Heeling can also lead nicely into yard whoa training and is invaluable for approaching ponds to jump ducks. I heel them as we sneak up and make them stay at the bottom of the dam when I jump it.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Tue Sep 28, 2021 2:41 pm

Heeling can also lead nicely into yard whoa training and is invaluable for approaching ponds to jump ducks.

Yeah she does that on the pond. Runs and jumps tp chase ducks.
Needs to be fixed.

Started heeling training. She ain't into it.

She was tracking a rabbit whole 10 minutes yesterday before the sunset. First time I heard her barking on the track... and kept crawling under hellish thorns and bushes.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Dmog » Wed Sep 29, 2021 12:48 pm

My current PP was the first dog I have ever had that sounds on fur trail...I was what the heck the first time she did it. Later, I found out it was a trait of some of the German engineering!
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Thu Sep 30, 2021 4:07 pm

My current PP was the first dog I have ever had that sounds on fur trail...I was what the heck the first time she did it. Later, I found out it was a trait of some of the German engineering!


The PP, as well as DL and KLM, are required to be marked loud on the track for breeding. Stud and bitch both need to be certified as a sight loud or as as scent loud. It is very important trait for these three breeds.
For the GSP it's not required but encouraged at least for the stud. I think, though I could be wrong, for the DD only required for studs to be loud.

Based on my anecdotal research, the PP and KLM produce the highest number of scent loud pups. The DL is kind of 35% scent loud and 65% sight loud.
There are dogs that are both but they are rear.

Some guys at the KLM club went too far by only breeding a scent loud to a scent loud. As a result there are some dogs that just bark as they search for a bird or fur, even without a smell being present. Very bad thing apparently.

I think it is a good trait when dog barks on chase or a scent. When my dog is after a duck in a tall vegetation and flooded timber, or she is chasing a rabbit I know she is on to something. Not sure how this gonna turn out in a real hunting situation as I never had dog that barked after bird or small game while chasing it.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Willie T » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:58 pm

Highlander, great thread. Thanks for letting me tag along. As for the sound on track: my pudelpointer chops on a fur track but not on birds. I like that. He runs pretty good so It is useful for me to know he is on fur. Particularly when he is out of my sight which happens a lot depending on cover, terrain, and bird density where we are hunting. Congrats on your test.
Your dog is a real beauty.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Oct 02, 2021 8:50 pm

Every GWP I have owned has been sight loud. On a smoking hot fur track they were also scent loud for a short distance on the jump. Tess is sight and scent loud. I expect just about 100% of dogs which are scent loud are also sight loud, the reverse is much less as many dogs are sight loud but not scent loud.

The VDD Performance breedings requires both dogs be loud as one of several criteria.

I have heard several knowledgable breeders opine that loud dogs (particularly scent loud) may well also lean towards being loud in situations where it is obnoxious. I believe it.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby Highlander » Sun Oct 03, 2021 10:32 am

The VDD Performance breedings requires both dogs be loud as one of several criteria.

It’s very likely that’s the case. I asked a guy at the test and he said he knew it was required for the studs, but she was not sure about the female’s being certified.

I have heard several knowledgable breeders opine that loud dogs (particularly scent loud) may well also lean towards being loud in situations where it is obnoxious. I believe it.


That’s what happened with some lines of klm.
Scent loud means that the dog barks out of excitement as he comes across the scent.
If the dog, by nature,is easily excitable (not very calm) and on top of he is a scent laud, the chances of giving bark in other circumstances such as blind, or searching or even looking at other dogs hunting, is quite high. This behavior is called Hunt loud and is considered a fault.
I read that the KLM Club is considering to restrict the breeding a scent loud to a scent loud as only mating criteria.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:45 pm

See Article 31 under Performance Breeding. https://www.vdd-gna.org/members/breedin ... gulations/

Of course many approved breedings of DDs under the VDD oversight are not Performance breedings, as the higher requirements of that are beyond the minimum standards/requirements for breeding.
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Re: Dusty The DL

Postby JONOV » Wed Oct 20, 2021 12:58 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I teach heeling at an early age because I have so many situations where I need my pup to heel as we travel around the county, airing at public rest areas and staying in motels.
.

Just as important, it's a lot easier to do it when the dog isn't yet strong enough to tear your labrum, and a correction can't turn into a tug of war competition. Leash manners generally are best taught at a young age IMO.
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