Whining PP Around Birds

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Quailguy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 2:55 pm

In training, my 3 1/2 year old PP fis rock solid, quiet and focused. Our quail season opened last weekend and whenever he's in the vicinity of birds he starts to whine, or should I say "scream". No level of electronic stimulation will quiet him down. Once he points, he's again focused, but this vocalizing does nothing for sneaking up on birds. He's been a whiner and talker since the day I got him, but this has gotten out of hand. At home he is the same way, when he wants somethings, the whines start. Bark collars, E collars, any collars, doesn't phase him. I'm sure someone out there as dealt with this before.

Thanks
Quailguy
Hunt Hard, Kill Swiftly, Waste Nothing, Offer No Apologies
Quailguy
Started
Started
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:10 pm

Good Luck. Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Quailguy » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:04 am

Does “Good Luck” mean that you don’t think this issue can’t be corrected, you don’t want to take the time to answer, or you don’t know how to correct it? Not sure how to interpret your answer.
Hunt Hard, Kill Swiftly, Waste Nothing, Offer No Apologies
Quailguy
Started
Started
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby orhunter » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:42 am

I think what he means is, at 3 1/2 years, it's probably ingrained to the point you're stuck with it.

Here's a thought. I don't know how long he's been wearing and you've been using the e-collar or how you've been using it but he may be anticipating being shocked and is reacting to it. Take the collar off of him and see if that helps. Just let him hunt.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4788
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:21 am

This may be very difficult to cure.

Couple of questions.
1) Did he just start this this season?

2) When he is on birds, whining, and you hit him with high on the collar.What is his reaction? Doe she stop his hunt or work through the collar and on to the Point?

Honestly a video might be helpful?

As Orhunter said, once something gets ingrained, it can be difficult to stop it. In this case its really not something we can see has a cause or a behavior we can readily correct like jumping on you. It seems to me it may be an issue of the excitement the upcoming point is manifesting in the whine. Since it sounds like the dog is continuing its hunt even after getting ecollar correction and will point, this seems most logical to me.
Its the adrenaline rush of smelling the bird(s) and the upcoming point. The point, like a retriever getting the bird in its mouth, may actually be anti climatic for the dog, thus the whining stops.

If you are not seeing any progress using the ecollar I would stop using it .

I would suggest that you got to retriever training.net... Do a search on "whining the blind". Somewhat similar to your issue, dogs whining in the blind is a difficult problem to solve. There is a guy on there that uses discipline to to change the behavior. Read through the posts and you will find the guys name. Get a hold of that guy and talk about your issue.

Since it also manifested at home, without knowing how you are handling it there, If it were me, I would start enforcing discipline. If he whines he has to heel, sit, go lay down etc... until he's quiet. No reward for whining. But I wouldn't do anything till you talk to the guy about retrievers whining.

It likely will not be easy, Dont give up yet,I recently fixed gunshyness in a lab. Good luck!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:33 am

Oh, and stop hunting till you get its fixed, sorry!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Quailguy » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:30 pm

Thank you for the advice. He started this the day I got him (I was told he was the quietest in the litter). At home, he starts in if he thinks he's missing out on something. I've used bark collars and when he gets the juice, he yelps, then goes right back at it. I have made him be quiet before he gets to do whatever it is he's whining about, and that lasts only for that one time, then off he goes. He can take a heck of a correction and doesn't get his feelings hurt, so I guess I can say he's just a driven dog. I think it's something we have to keep working at, obviously. Today on a quail hunt, I saw him bark at running birds, nailed him with the collar, and watched him work the birds nicely. I've seen a slight decrease in his vocalizations on the last 2 hunts and hope that as the season continues, he'll settle down. By the end of the day, he is quiet as he's worn out. I'll look at the retriever site you mentioned and adapt it to him. Thanks again for your help.
Hunt Hard, Kill Swiftly, Waste Nothing, Offer No Apologies
Quailguy
Started
Started
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:52 pm

What I meant by good luck is @3 1/2 you have waited to long to have a quick fix even if you can fix it , the dog is just anxious for a bird, also you better be very careful with that shock collar with the dog pointing , you can get a blinker quick.
As far as a dog barking when chasing birds that is not uncommon ,wouldn't worry about that at all. Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby blue04 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:22 pm

It's not unusual for a PP to be "sight loud" or sichtlaut in German (vocalizes when chasing game, and the game is visible). My PP is, and has been since he was a puppy. If we jump a rabbit, he'll give chase and vocalize until he either runs it down, I call him off, or until the rabbit finds cover and he shifts into scent tracking mode. He is not "spurlaut", meaning he does not vocalize when he's on a hot trail. He only does it when the game is actually visible.

The other term the germans use is "spurlaut" or "scent loud", meaning the dog will vocalize when on a track even if the game is not visible. For a lot of German breeds, these characteristics are considered a positive thing. I'm not 100% sure whether the Germans actually breed for these traits in PPs, or if it's a side-effect of breeding for other traits. Possibly there are some folks on here that are more educated about the German systems than I am, and they could enlighten us.

To be clear, the "laut" vocalizations these dogs make are different from standard barking. They are higher pitched, and intermingled with howling and yowling.
blue04
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 12:21 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Kiger2 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:02 pm

Blue4,
Well there goes any arguments against using whistles or bells!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby reader4 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 8:52 am

I thought of the same thing as Blue04... loud on game. The vocalization in the house vs. the field is probably different though, and usually loud on game = loud on fur (not birds). Have you spoken to the breeder at all to learn if the dogs are all loud on game, if this is expected for their pups, etc.?

Vocalizing in the house might be more of a behavioral issue that can take a while to address. Introducing a queue to be quiet and working on that with rewards just as you started "sit" or anything else would be one approach if you haven't already. Simply correcting for vocalizing likely won't be enough -- try to queue a desired behavior in contrast to the corrected behavior, and reward for compliance before he has a chance to vocalize. He'll understand better if you reward what you want instead of just correcting what you don't.

He's quiet in training on birds, or just obedience work? If on birds, then it could be he's just picking up on the difference between the training environment and hunting. Perhaps there is a way to bridge those two worlds a bit more by making training look increasingly like a hunting scenario.
reader4
Started
Started
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 11:02 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Quailguy » Mon Oct 26, 2020 9:54 am

All great insight and advice! Let me try to narrow it down a little; No noise in obedience work, no noise on planted birds. I think it's the anticipation that gets to him when we're somewhere other than the training field. I already have plans to bring training birds to areas we hunt. I think that's going to help in several areas. I only tap him with an E collar when he's on point and that has been enough, so far. I have never seen a dog that can bounce back from a correction like he can. At 3 1/2, this is likely never going to end for any extended period of time, but he hunts well enough that it's worth the trade-off.

There seems to be a big differnce in the Pudelpointers today versus the ones I had in the 90's. My 13 fyear old female and this dog are much more aggressive (read, stubborn). I know this was an issue Bodo Winterhelt foresaw when talk of impoting German lines to increase the gene pool in the US.

Thanks again to everyone. I really enjoy hearing opinions from others with more experience than I do.

Best
Quailguy
Hunt Hard, Kill Swiftly, Waste Nothing, Offer No Apologies
Quailguy
Started
Started
 
Posts: 27
Joined: Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:59 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby orhunter » Mon Oct 26, 2020 10:06 am

When I first got involved with dogs and NAVHDA the one thing I noticed was how tough and possibly stubborn the PP was. They could handle some serious abuse and never be affected. Maybe they're still like that but I haven't noticed because I don't see much UT these days.

You might try, place board training.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4788
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby Willie T » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:34 am

I teach a “quiet” command. In your case, overlaying the vibrate on the e-collar would be useful in the field. Having let it go for 3 1/2 years is going to make it substantially more difficult to curtail. It sounds like excitement over bird contact on the dogs part. Hearing that by the end of the day it stops makes me wonder how much the dog has been hunted and if the problem would resolve itself with a steady diet of wild birds.

Willie
Willie T
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 656
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Whining PP Around Birds

Postby orhunter » Tue Oct 27, 2020 9:10 am

Willie: That's what I was thinking. "Steady diet of wild birds." Something other than quail and lots of them.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4788
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests