Pudelpointer coat - white with black

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby JTracyII » Tue Jun 09, 2020 10:09 pm

mustad wrote:I would look at the sire, who is a german import and has been used in Germany as a stud dog. Look on the pedigree for Von Holstein which is a program in Germany designed to infuse additional genetics into the program. They replicate the Pudel x Pointer breeding and then allow the offspring to go through the breeding certification process. Not all breeders in Germany are on board with the idea, but it's an ongoing debate. Regardless, if you see the Von Holstein line on the pedigree, that is most likely the cause. If you are looking to breed, this isn't necessarily anything to be concerned about in considering this breeding. There are plenty of breeders both overseas and in North America that use dogs coming from these lines. If you aren't looking to breed, I would not shy away from this pup either.



This is the kennel in Germany I was referring too in my above post.
I-80's Classy and Couragous, UT III, 190 pts, NA 112 pts.
Oxbow's Kindle the Fire, UT I, 201 pts, NA 108 pts.
Cross Timber's Above and Beyond, TBA
https://crosstimbergundogs.com/
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Highlander » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:47 am

mustad

Thanks for sharing this info.
I just curious if you know what generation went to the breeding stock? F1 or F2. As I mentioned above they did the same thing in the Langhaar club, but the kept it separate.
(As a future DL owner I am paying attention what's going on with this type of cross breedings.)

The EP pointer is a short hair breed and genetically they usually dominate. So the F1 generation is 95% short hair.
I wonder since the Germans consider the hair quality the essential in the wirehaired breeds if they would let the F1 generation into the breeding stock. This would produce a litter with 50% shorthaired pups.
I find this very interesting and intriguing.

Also, I found this photo of a pup on one of the German site. The pup's parents are a full brown PP with all test having passed. Actually there two of them in the litter like this pup.
Is this a normal color for a PP?
Attachments
Cream PP pup.JPG
Cream PP pup.JPG (226.97 KiB) Viewed 313 times
The hunter from highlands
User avatar
Highlander
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:26 am
Location: Hudson Valley, NY

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:43 pm

Highlander wrote:mustad

Thanks for sharing this info.
I just curious if you know what generation went to the breeding stock? F1 or F2. As I mentioned above they did the same thing in the Langhaar club, but the kept it separate.
(As a future DL owner I am paying attention what's going on with this type of cross breedings.)

The EP pointer is a short hair breed and genetically they usually dominate. So the F1 generation is 95% short hair.
I wonder since the Germans consider the hair quality the essential in the wirehaired breeds if they would let the F1 generation into the breeding stock. This would produce a litter with 50% shorthaired pups.
I find this very interesting and intriguing.

Also, I found this photo of a pup on one of the German site. The pup's parents are a full brown PP with all test having passed. Actually there two of them in the litter like this pup.
Is this a normal color for a PP?



Highlander,

That is not a normal colour as normal is Black and Brown. My understanding is that Furnishings are dominant over having no furnishings. If someone breeds a slick PP who has no furnishings (having two little f's and no gene for furnishings) to a dog with two big F's for furnishings then all pups in the litter will have furnishings. If the dog who has furnishings genetically is Ff, so having one big F (Furnishings) and one little f (no furnishings) they will be be furnished themselves. Any dog who has one big F genetically will always display that trait as it is a dominant trait. You can breed a dog with two big F's to any dog and all pups will have furnishings. I am guessing the Germans are selecting only PP's who are FF to breed to pointers for their program so that they know that all resulting pups will have furnishings.

Some folks get all wound up tight about backbreeding to pointers or foundation stock. I don't believe it should ever be done in the dark or hidden. The Germans are open about what they are doing and only breed those who pass the testing. Those that don't do not get bred. Bodo did the same...out in the open. To my knowledge there were three pointers backbred too here in the US. They are right there in the pedigree's in NAVHDA's database for all to see. I have done a fair amount of research on the matter. Trust me, pretty much all PP's in N. America have one of these three pointers in their pedigree, sometimes many times. There are a few females who have Jack Rack, a NASTRA pointer from years ago, in their pedigrees four generations back, who years ago were line bred on extensively. What Bodo did was not all that novel from what Germany has done here and there as well. Makes sense as he was German himself and learned their ways. What he did was not all that novel especially in light of the other breeds in this thread that have been mentioned that are outcrossing to other breeds,such as the DL and DK.

The Germans have been more successful with dog genetics than any country in the world is my estimation. I am sure that they are careful in what they are doing.
I-80's Classy and Couragous, UT III, 190 pts, NA 112 pts.
Oxbow's Kindle the Fire, UT I, 201 pts, NA 108 pts.
Cross Timber's Above and Beyond, TBA
https://crosstimbergundogs.com/
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby orhunter » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:16 pm

JT... Very well said. Every word.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4646
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby mustad » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:16 am

Highlander wrote:mustad

Thanks for sharing this info.
I just curious if you know what generation went to the breeding stock? F1 or F2. As I mentioned above they did the same thing in the Langhaar club, but the kept it separate.
(As a future DL owner I am paying attention what's going on with this type of cross breedings.)



Hi Highlander,

It's been a while but F1 is tightly controlled and not registered. I've seen a lot of F2's exported from Germany with a VPP registration, but I feel like it isn't until F3 until an opportunity is presented to test and register within the VPP. JTracy probably has a better idea of this than me.

Regardless, if I were looking for a hunting pup and had no interest in breeding, I would not shy away from this pup. It is unfortunate that the breeder isn't showing the pup on the website, but I get it. My parents very rarely brought me out in public :-). I'm sure he's asked himself why this happened and has probably figured it out. It would be worth a conversation, but if you like the pup, go for it. If you do, please test the pup at least for Natural Ability in NAVHDA. If for no other reason than to watch the expression of the judges when you tell them he's a PP.
User avatar
mustad
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 92
Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Highlander » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:25 pm

JTracyII

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
I found other pup in other mating this color... both parents are brown with good testing and show scores. Then I looked up the hunting poodle and to my surprise I saw a lot of poodles with a light, cream color this pup in the picture. Do you think he will get brown as he gets bigger?

As for the cross breeding or bringing a new blood in the stock it like the idea, but it depends how qualified the one is who doing it and what is his initial intend. It is one thing one I do that breeding and it is one thing when someone like Bodo does it. The experience with dogs between me and him is astronomical. My point is that it may not be a good idea if everyone decided they have enough knowledge to undertake such a big challenge.
Historically, the GSP is the most abused breed in these terms. Whoever felt something needed to be done with whatever knowledge and dogs they had hey did it.

In the case of the DL they looked not a specific trait or quality but rather a way to prevent a future genetic dead end. It was done by the club with collaboration with geneticists at university.
Interestingly the first generation came out only short-haired pups.



mustad

Thanks for you answer.
I found that story and you were right. It was done by the club and the offspring has been under observation.
Here is the full story (in German)
https://wildundhund.de/pudelpointer-mit ... tirnlocke/
The hunter from highlands
User avatar
Highlander
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:26 am
Location: Hudson Valley, NY

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby Sooty42 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:11 pm

MI girl,
Are you getting the pup?
Sooty42
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:39 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Pudelpointer coat - white with black

Postby JTracyII » Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:29 pm

Highlander wrote: JTracyII

Thanks for the detailed explanation.
I found other pup in other mating this color... both parents are brown with good testing and show scores. Then I looked up the hunting poodle and to my surprise I saw a lot of poodles with a light, cream color this pup in the picture. Do you think he will get brown as he gets bigger?

As for the cross breeding or bringing a new blood in the stock it like the idea, but it depends how qualified the one is who doing it and what is his initial intend. It is one thing one I do that breeding and it is one thing when someone like Bodo does it. The experience with dogs between me and him is astronomical. My point is that it may not be a good idea if everyone decided they have enough knowledge to undertake such a big challenge.
Historically, the GSP is the most abused breed in these terms. Whoever felt something needed to be done with whatever knowledge and dogs they had hey did it.

In the case of the DL they looked not a specific trait or quality but rather a way to prevent a future genetic dead end. It was done by the club with collaboration with geneticists at university.
Interestingly the first generation came out only short-haired pups.



mustad

Thanks for you answer.
I found that story and you were right. It was done by the club and the offspring has been under observation.
Here is the full story (in German)
https://wildundhund.de/pudelpointer-mit ... tirnlocke/


I agree that back breeding should not be done unless unless the person has extensive knowledge. I would go a step further and say it needs to be out in the open and show up on the pedigree for all to see. Bodo got approval and it was done through his organization, the PCNA. It will never be done here again in the US with NAVHDA’s approval. Bodo had the inside on NAVHDA (since he was the founder) and he new those in Germany, so he had his bases covered and could pull it off. NAVHDA would probably not allow it again. They also now enforce a DNA tested policy for all breeding stock, so it would be harder to do now. Probably a good thing.

I do not think the cream coloured dog will darken much in the picture. I bet a dog of that colour is not registerable.
I-80's Classy and Couragous, UT III, 190 pts, NA 112 pts.
Oxbow's Kindle the Fire, UT I, 201 pts, NA 108 pts.
Cross Timber's Above and Beyond, TBA
https://crosstimbergundogs.com/
JTracyII
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1100
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:42 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Previous

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests