Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

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Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ForTheBirds84 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:00 am

I have a Pudelpointer that is about 8 months old. I plan on starting Force Fetch training after the first of the year. I have an outline, I plan on following the green book steps and methods. Those of you who have done the FF process what stumbling blocks did you encounter and what advice would you have to give? I realize this process will take weeks to complete.(and will need to be maintained always) I plan to keep sessions to around 20-30 minutes per day about 5 days a week.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby orhunter » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:03 am

20/30 minutes may be too long. I’d do more shorter sessions.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ForTheBirds84 » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:14 am

orhunter wrote:20/30 minutes may be too long. I’d do more shorter sessions.


So by this do you mean everyday 10-15 minutes? or even twice a day... 10 minutes or less in the morning then again in the evening? Also I have read that many people struggle getting thier dog through it. What is the biggest challenge?
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:33 am

ForTheBirds84 wrote:I have a Pudelpointer that is about 8 months old. I plan on starting Force Fetch training after the first of the year. I have an outline, I plan on following the green book steps and methods. Those of you who have done the FF process what stumbling blocks did you encounter and what advice would you have to give? I realize this process will take weeks to complete.(and will need to be maintained always) I plan to keep sessions to around 20-30 minutes per day about 5 days a week.


Ditch the Green Book and get the Orange Book http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/storeitems.php - the chapter on Retrieving is illustrated step-by and worth the price alone for FF'ing your first versatile.

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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:25 pm

The green book is good for some stuff but it's 40 years old. There are better more modern methods for teaching FF. Evan Graham seems to be a popular one. Surely there are other good ones.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Willie T » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:28 pm

ForTheBirds84 wrote:I have a Pudelpointer that is about 8 months old. I plan on starting Force Fetch training after the first of the year. I have an outline, I plan on following the green book steps and methods. Those of you who have done the FF process what stumbling blocks did you encounter and what advice would you have to give? I realize this process will take weeks to complete.(and will need to be maintained always) I plan to keep sessions to around 20-30 minutes per day about 5 days a week.


Ok, force fetch can be hard on a dog, especially if you take a heavy hand. Prepare your dog well by teaching hold, leave, and fetch prior to commencing. Keep sessions 10 minutes or less for the sake of focus and attitude. If this is your first time to force fetch a dog, either find an experienced mentor or hire a professional trainer to coach you. While some are very intuitive trainers, I read about far more who flounder force fetching their first dog, at the dogs expense. Your dog deserves for you to put in the same effort you will expect of it. Evan Graham has a good program. A word of caution though: force fetch came about to train predominantly labs for the retriever games. They are a lot tougher mentally than most versatile dogs I have been around. Adjustment is necessary.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:16 am

FTBs,

Willie T gives his normal good advice. I have Evan Graham's DVD and it is good instruction.

However most of these Vdogs have excellent natural retrieve and do not require a full traditional ear pinch based FF program.

I nurtured my current dog's natural retrieve, developed a very strong Hunt Dead from a baby on, excellent recall, trained the Hold command, then overlayed the ecollar on the Fetch command and did some FTP work. The dog does extremely well at recovering all forms of downed birds on land or water and sits and delivers to hand nicely. His performance is absolutely on par with my prior GWPs which I put through all the same but also included the ear pinch portion of FF programs for those prior dogs.

Here he is presenting a GWT a few weeks back after marking it down into tall heavy weed cover, running to his mark 100 yards distant, hunting dead and running it back to me.

Image

I used a modified version of the Perfect Retrieve DVD with this current dog and will do the same with future dogs unless I encounter difficulties which point to the need for something different. http://www.perfectionkennel.com/order-dvds.html
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:34 am

Crackered has given you good advice.
Remember that you have a hunting dog, not a trial dog.
I think it's best with a V dog to modify the system somewhat and use treats in conjunction with the force.
If you train the dog to flawlessly come when called, sit, and hold the FF will go smoothly when you start it.
You will get into less trouble using less pressure than more.
Pinch the ear against the collar buckle to get a more even pressure.
The same as you, if a dog is in too much pain it can't perform the task it's given.
Smart Fetch DVD has been the bible for years and I think it's probably the best teaching aid out there.
I haven't seen the Perfection DVD but they are all based on the Carr system.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ForTheBirds84 » Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:06 am

Thanks for all of the advice. I will look into some methods that you all suggested. I do have a mentor that lives close by that has already offered to help with the process. I do know that my pup has great natural retrieve. He has since I brought him home. Loves to carry things while on walks and such, and has retrieved a few birds in his first season. He looks pretty darn good trotting to me proud as can be with a pheasant in his mouth! I really dont want to over do it to kill any of that spirit, so your advice has been helpful.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Dakotazeb » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:03 am

Why do you feel you need to FF? Does the dog have a natural retrieve?
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby crackerd » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:18 am

Dakotazeb wrote:Why do you feel you need to FF? Does the dog have a natural retrieve?


zeb, here's the thing, 999 of 1,000 competitive Labs have a "natural retrieve" but 998 of those 1,000 are FF'd for what it instills in the dog - namely a work ethic interwoven with your will to have the dog do as you command. Not for retrieving, not for retrieving better, but for retrieving how and when and where that I, the handler, want you, the dog, to comply with my command.

GH has given a nicely modified approach for FF'ing which not surprisingly a lot of amateur retriever trialers use because they get a great camaraderie with their dog leading into the process.

I spoke out on behalf of the Orange Book because it presents FF not only with step-by illustration but a graduating checklist that you, the handler (you, the handler force-fetching your first V-dog), go through before progressing to the next step. If I'm not mistaken, the ear-pinch is, like, 13 steps into the process. It is as borderline foolproof as it gets for the first timer and having been written by a couple of doctors/professors, takes great pains in telling you, the handler (you, the handler force-fetching your first V-dog) why you have a natural aversion as the dog's owner to inflicting pain on your best friend but here's how and why you will overcome that aversion. Soothing your inner canine soul, if you will. Evan Graham's and the other Carr-based programs are excellent and efficient - but you will learn more about yourself and your dog, and the whys and wherefores of force-fetching your first V-dog with the Orange Book, a/k/a Training the Sporting Dog.

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Remember that you have a hunting dog, not a trial dog.
I think it's best with a V dog to modify the system somewhat and use treats in conjunction with the force.
If you train the dog to flawlessly come when called, sit, and hold the FF will go smoothly when you start it.
You will get into less trouble using less pressure than more.
Pinch the ear against the collar buckle to get a more even pressure.
The same as you, if a dog is in too much pain it can't perform the task it's given.
Smart Fetch DVD has been the bible for years and I think it's probably the best teaching aid out there.
I haven't seen the Perfection DVD but they are all based on the Carr system.


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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ForTheBirds84 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:41 am

Crackerd, that is a more exact answer than I could have provided on my own. This is the first time I am going through this process. I had a couple GSp's in the past but they were no where near "trained" as I had thought. With this pup I am looking to work to discover the full potential of a dog and hadler's ability to be a team. And its been great for everyone involved.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ryanr » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:06 am

A single session should just be about 10 minutes and you should do 2-3 per day. Do you plan on finishing with e-fetch? (We begin overlaying the e-collar right after ear pinch and thereafter try to use just the e-collar for corrections.)

I second Crackerd's recommendation of the "orange book" as it gives a very thorough step by step and has questions after each step for the handler to answer to know if they are ready to go to the next step. And like GH suggests we have also modified some technique but the orange book is still the backbone of the system. Basically we use A LOT OF PRAISE (which I think gets overlooked when people think of FF) and we look to transition to the e-collar as quickly as we can. Also at the end of each session we ALWAYS give a release command to the dog. We use the command "FREE" or "your Free" and to so with a lot of praise and excitement to let the dog know it did well and training is over. It's probably another overlooked detail that I think is critical to helping the dog's mental outlook and letting it know the training pressure is over, go be a dog.
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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby Densa44 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:21 pm

Oh boy, "DON'T OVER DO IT" if I had only learned that 50 years ago. Remember that you are teaching not punishing and there is no rush. I've seen a Brit that was "clicker" trained and got a UT 1 score. Pay attention to the advice.
If your dog doesn't need to be "forced" why are you doing it?
When I teach sight blinds, I always drop the bird/dummy when she brings it back and she grabs it and hands it back immediately, I make it fun!

This FF business has to be done with great care.

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Re: Force Fetch, Conditioned Retrieve, ect...

Postby ForTheBirds84 » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:25 pm

I appreciate the responses.
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