Hope we never become this..........

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby mtbirder » Mon Aug 19, 2019 4:28 pm

AverageGuy,

A few things...............

"Gotta say it runs through my mind that these two might be Great guys: Fishing buddies sharing a moment of joy over one catching a beautiful trout on a fly rod in a beautiful place. I hope if they ever run across their photo in this thread they are able to have a chuckle over it[/b] vs take offense at being picked apart by Folks they have never met and who know nothing about them other than the color of their shirts".

I started this thread with humor in mind, thought that was quite evident - as it seems some were able to grasp. I live,(did) work,and play with Greater Yellowstone area flyfishermen/women and guiding community everyday. Hell I just patronized a Bozeman fly shop 2 hours ago. I know them quite well. THAT is precisely why I was POKING FUN at them.

"I hope we are not as unwelcomed by the locals as the theme this thread has taken, but if we are, we are going anyway. If we finds lots of birds we will shoot what the law allows, if we find a few we will shoot a few. That is kind of how Bird Hunting works most of the time for most folks".

As a conservationist, as you are, I am first and foremost concerned with the health and well being of the upland bird population we utilize as hunters - more so than that every swinging dick in the field gets to shoot the birds he "by gawd came here to do". I don't tell strangers (on an internet site) MT bird populations are hurting just to appease myself. Conservation and stewardship of our resources -#1. I damn well guarantee you that if you told me the same about your home area - as a traveling and visiting conscientious sportsman - I would consider giving your area's birds a break because god knows, many others WILL COME NO MATTER WHAT. I say the same things to my fellow resident bird hunters. I am equally realistic to all.
And besides, you obviously read RowdyGSP's and my exchange about the intangibles of the hunt. It should be evident our concern about what we do and the pure enjoyment of it. Like you I'd expect.....

"I like my GWPs but those Labs are impressive at their speciality and I find it easy to appreciate them".

I doubt you missed my photo of my beloved yellow bud Emmett and my comments about our time with him. Once again maybe you missed the levity. Although orhunter is obviously an anti-labbite. Humor in case it went by you (again) AG.

And I hope you have a safe and happy season too - you must be somewhat OK if you have wire hairs...................

One more thing - at 90 posts, I'd say this discussion garnered quite a bit of interest. I enjoyed it............
Ennis Montana's Bailey B - No pedigree, no prizes. Just 11 years of field excellence
User avatar
mtbirder
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:09 pm

MtBirder, I get it. Just that things are truly only funny if the guys being made fun of are laughing along with you. I hope they are.

A non related aside to shed some light on my leanings here.

Twice this past week I responded to two different posts inquiring about training young bird dog pups.

One was a guy trying to get a 4 month old DD to swim. I suggested tossing a wing clipped pigeon into shallow water gradually getting deeper water a short distance from shore. Some Woman from Finland started attacking me for torturing birds, then looked at my FB profile and saw the GPS antenna on my dog's collar and added use of ecollars to her list of my unethical behavior. This from a source who has never used one of course. This woman shows DD in Finland and claims to be some form of a Hunter. She did have one photo of her dressed in the typical natty European Hunt Attire holding a Hare beside a DD.

Second was a guy trying get a year old WPG to point using wings and scents. I suggested putting the dog on some live birds. Some guy from Australia claiming to be a Hunter starts in about how unethical it is to use a live bird solely for training ...

I see a lot of static between Hunters at the same time I see a huge need for tolerance and unity amongst the same. That was where I was coming from.

Not suggesting this thread is a big deal, I just have a different slant on it and shared it. We will all be hunting soon and our posts will reflect it ...
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby mtbirder » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:22 pm

Aw man - you're on Facebook? Do your dog(s) know this about you? This fact taint's any good things I previously said on your behalf :D
I've ALWAYS believed all that thing was is another way for people to piss each other off -imaginary friends (unfriends) and all.....
The testimonial data you just provided (as well as just about everyone else's I hear about) bolstered my empirically arrived at assumptions.......
Ennis Montana's Bailey B - No pedigree, no prizes. Just 11 years of field excellence
User avatar
mtbirder
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Yea its embarrassing. :shock:

But I have met a lot of very talented and interesting folks as well. And there is a wealth of information to be found. NAVHDA Chapters, Retriever Clubs, Training Days, Tests, Sources of Birds, Breeders, DNR Pages ... With the right focus it can be very productive. (e.g. Learned about the Rattlesnake Avoidance training we are attending this weekend on FB last week.)
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby J D Patrick » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:23 am

RowdyGSP wrote:mtbirder, just so you know I hope you don't consider me one of the "hoardes" but if you do it doesn't bother me much. I've never been one to shoot every bird I come across when numbers are low. Yes I'm taking a week-long vacation to Montana (as I do every year). But last year I passed up shooting a lot of the few coveys of birds I did find. I just like spending time on the prairie and my dogs getting work. Most of the fun for me is sitting at camp at night, with a glass of good bourbon, looking at the prairie stars. Any birds we shoot out of bigger coveys is just a bonus. I enjoy getting back to reality (the prairie).



absolutely! good post
J D Patrick
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 209
Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:33 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Aug 20, 2019 9:07 am

I see the effects of too much use on the Walk-in areas of Kansas, public areas in MO and IA (tied for second to last of the 50 states for % public lands). The hen to rooster ratios get crazy out of wack (as in 40 or more to 1) and coveys of Bobwhites can be hunted into non-existence in some areas lacking in nearby heavy brush escape cover or adjoining private lands with suitable habitat.

But the prairie birds i.e. Huns, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens (and Rooster pheasants) tend to take care of themselves and low bird numbers have a natural way of wearing down the enthusiasm for the casual bird hunters.

I hunted a ranch in Texas the last 3 days of season in Feb 2017 and we averaged moving 8 coveys of bobwhites an hour. The next year we struggled to find 8 coveys a day. Huge numbers of birds were still there in Feb 2017 on the last day of season so the dramatic decline was unquestionably 100% due to weather and parasites.

Not shooting upland birds when they are plentiful is a choice all are free to make but it does nothing for the resource is the point that experience drove home for me.

I am all about the dog work and without my dog I will cease hunting upland birds and pickup my bow. Most days hunting locally I get some wild bird contacts and shoot one maybe two birds and I feel Blessed for it.

But hand wringing over how many birds a guy shoots within the legal parameters of the law is mostly wasted energy, especially when those birds are Huns, Sharptails, Prairie Chickens and Pheasants (where roosters only are taken). Just a few Hunter contacts tend to educate those birds sufficiently that they quickly become quite effective at avoiding bird dogs and shotguns no matter what the Hunter's intentions might be in regards to filling limits.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby orhunter » Tue Aug 20, 2019 10:55 am

It is said by the “experts,” a single rooster phez can service up to 14 hens.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 8155
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby mtbirder » Wed Aug 21, 2019 9:54 am

orhunter wrote:It is said by the “experts,” a single rooster phez can service up to 14 hens.


I worked with/alongside/argued with some of those experts for over 30 years. While the info regarding roosters' breeding prowess may be correct, many of those "experts" are the very ones who set bag limits according to "the legal parameters of the law". From personal and professional experience, I'm here to inform you all that more than just some of 'em have about as much idea (or Less) about their bird populations as the guys who make up the visiting hordes I mentioned earlier. But they do have nice M.S. of Biology and/or Wildlife Mgmt. degrees on their office walls.
But do go on (blind) faithfully believing that the bag limits are set by the "ones" in the know.
Or go on really knowing better, but use that excuse to justify other ideas :D
Ennis Montana's Bailey B - No pedigree, no prizes. Just 11 years of field excellence
User avatar
mtbirder
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby orhunter » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:28 am

Agree 100%. The word expert, must always be taken with a grain of salt. Here in Orygun, there is a long going battle between hatchery Steelhead vs Wild. It’s been ODFW policy for several years to not plant hatchery fish on top of wild fish although the hatchery fish are not capable of polluting the wild gene pool or reproducing among themselves. It was a knee jerk reaction not based on anything that happens in the real world. There is an outside chance a hatchery male Steelhead could mate with a wild female which would produce more wild but this is not likely. It doesn’t really matter if it does happen as this would help increase the population which is good.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 8155
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby mtbirder » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:42 am

If OR is at all like MT, I'm sure there are a number of competent and dedicated F & WL Mgmt professionals. The problem is that there so many who don't fit that description, it's hard to have any "faith"in the agencies which are responsible for that management. Unless you're one of the naive (which in this age of communication - there exists no excuse) masses.
Two other sad realities (in MT at least):
1. So many of the "good" ones keep their head under the radar and don't speak out (which in my mind probably disqualifies them as a "good" one).
2. The workforce is slowly becoming filled with non-consumptive (or barely consumptive), barely outdoorsmen/women. If managing F & W resources isn't deeply in your gut, because it's your passion outside of work as well - you're not gonna' be worth a damn at it.

Just one view from an old, now retired, refugee from the changing (not in good ways) field......................................

Good thing I 've always my dogs to assist my sanity.
Image
Ennis Montana's Bailey B - No pedigree, no prizes. Just 11 years of field excellence
User avatar
mtbirder
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby ryanr » Wed Aug 21, 2019 12:49 pm

Thank you for your expert opinion. :oops: :D
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2489
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby mtbirder » Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:25 pm

You're welcome.
Thanks for your qualified reply.
Actually I only wanted to get this thing to 100 posts so I could be an internet hero.
I really don't give a rat's ass about anything I spoke of, it was all for my own benefit so I could feel important..
And I really was a plumber my whole life and the pics of my dogs are just something I downloaded off of a photo hosting site........................................................
Ennis Montana's Bailey B - No pedigree, no prizes. Just 11 years of field excellence
User avatar
mtbirder
Seasoned
Seasoned
 
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 12:26 pm

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby Willie T » Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:20 pm

I will briefly weigh in on where this discussion has went. I too have credentials regarding habitat and wildlife management and conservation that I seldom talk about. I manage 150,000 of private land in Texas. Among other accomplishments, I have been awarded the Lone Star Land Steward for the best habitat management and wildlife conservation by a private landowner within a region of Texas the size of a number of states.

Good dogs will find and point birds, even in poor years. Great dogs will find and point even more. Skilled bird hunters with good dogs can kill birds, even in poor years when the population can not sustain it. In the good years I enjoy putting the dogs on birds and leaning on em. In my opinion, and I have stated it before, the conscientious hunter needs to listen to the inner man. In years when bird populations are weak, we need to take our foot off the gas with an eye to the future. Unfortunately, I believe the number of uninformed hunters who are blinded by the fun a fellow can have with a shotgun and a good dog, sometimes lack the necessary reverence for the resources we all revel in.
Willie
Willie T
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 539
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby ryanr » Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:10 pm

I've shot at but have yet to kill a ruffed grouse so I'm very conscientious. So much so, I thought my dog was going to leave me for another hunter when were up in Maine :lol:
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2489
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Hope we never become this..........

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Aug 22, 2019 6:23 am

Willie T wrote:I will briefly weigh in on where this discussion has went. I too have credentials regarding habitat and wildlife management and conservation that I seldom talk about. I manage 150,000 of private land in Texas. Among other accomplishments, I have been awarded the Lone Star Land Steward for the best habitat management and wildlife conservation by a private landowner within a region of Texas the size of a number of states.

Good dogs will find and point birds, even in poor years. Great dogs will find and point even more. Skilled bird hunters with good dogs can kill birds, even in poor years when the population can not sustain it. In the good years I enjoy putting the dogs on birds and leaning on em. In my opinion, and I have stated it before, the conscientious hunter needs to listen to the inner man. In years when bird populations are weak, we need to take our foot off the gas with an eye to the future. Unfortunately, I believe the number of uninformed hunters who are blinded by the fun a fellow can have with a shotgun and a good dog, sometimes lack the necessary reverence for the resources we all revel in.
Willie


I have been taking my foot off the gas for a few decades now. I have to go back 3 dogs to when it was responsible to routinely take 8 bird limits of Bobwhites in my home state and I did so. I do not know why our DNR continues to set the limit that high and I disagree with it. I expect they would correctly state that habitat and weather are what determine our quail numbers not hunter mortality, but I still disagree with it.

I expect my current dog will never retrieve an 8 bird limit of Bobwhites for me in my home state regardless of the legal limits. The dog prior to my current one hunted 13 seasons and I shot only one full limit over him in my home state. When I have access to a good numbers on private land, I ration those birds over a numerous hunts where I can enjoy bird contacts and reward some good dog work with perhaps a half a limit or less of birds and leave the rest for another day or hopefully another season. That "another season" part often does not work out but I control what I can control best and that is my own behavior and consumption.

For a few decades I have known that a 4 rooster daily limit is Kansas was a shameless marketing ploy (a State I have hunted for 50 years) and with limited exceptions I have stopped at 2 or 3 so that I could ration the populations on the properties I hunt over a 3 month long season. Never in 45 years of hunting roosters have I partaken in a large party hunt which take large opening weekend tolls of a what is otherwise a season's worth of dog work for me hunting alone or with a close friend or family member.

I repeat my experience that prairie grouse and huns are very capable of taking care of themselves. The opening day and early season hordes will certainly take a toll but the education of the remaining birds make them quite capable of getting out of the way of birddogs and shotguns to a large extent.

Yes some bird hunters are better than others but they tend to be the ones we do not have to worry about in terms of abusing the resource.

What I posted was fact. Texas went from ass deep in birds to 1/10 of that in one season due to weather. Which is common in that part of the country. My home state had enjoyed a nice uptick in bird numbers in the 18/19 season but the winter that would not quit followed by a spring which got an annual amount of rainfall in 3 months has changed all that.

Upland birds cannot be stockpiled and hunter mortality is mostly self regulating and plays a minuscule role in their populations.

Online Bitching about not being able keep a God given gift of a state such as Montana all to themselves, masquerading as Conservation does not make it so.

The dove fields, public marshes and prairies in my home state and adjoining states are so crowded on opening days and weekends that I do not hunt them. These are places I enjoy year round and I can easily relate to emotions of resentment of the full parking lots and inability to enjoy what I live for in private.

However I think the mature response is to recognize that Hunters are a dwindling minority in a Society at large that would gladly legislate us out of existence and so I work to avoid the crowds and find the experiences I crave on another day and place as best I can.

Bird hunters shooting legal limits of birds is pretty much at the bottom of the list of issues threatening our lifestyle.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2548
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 6 guests