FF in 4 Days

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FF in 4 Days

Postby RowdyGSP » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:13 pm

Is it even possible? A guy I know (wouldn't call him a buddy) says the trainer he's using FF'd his EP in 4 days completely finished. Says he's having his brittany "cost him money" because it's taking the brittany longer. When I FF'd my DK Tygh it took months, not days. Is there some method out there that I'm missing out on or is his pointer not truly finished (or probably even started) on FF? And yes he's the type of guy who hires people to train his dogs. I'm just very skeptical as this guy FF's britts and pointers, not real retrieving breeds like labs, chessies and every German breed. :D
Last edited by RowdyGSP on Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:11 am

4 days ?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Dmog » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:20 am

Heck, it takes 4 days just for the trainer to get to know the dog before applying pressure...fastest I have heard a pro doing FF is 2 weeks and the owner had done a nice job working the pup on natural retrieve, but I have limited exposure to the topic so I guess its possible but not ideal.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:37 am

Guy has an untrained dog. Clueless.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:51 am

If the person is just specifically talking about the actual "force" part (ie. Ear pinch and e-collar overlay) then yeah it's possible. As you know Rowdy, the entire "force fetch" or trained retrieve process is longer however but from what I've learned taking your time in laying a strong foundation with hold and carry is the important part of ensuring success in the "force" part. So if he's talking about the entire process including the foundation work, heck no, no, no.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:48 pm

With PR you can get most of the job done in four days simply because you're showing the dog what you want it to do and then paying him to do it. Since dogs are eager to please it goes fast in a smart dog.

With traditional FF you're asking the dog to figure out on his own what he has to do to turn off the pain. That's a big difference and consequently it takes a long time (certainly not four days). Granted, once you're there, it's more solid with the traditional methods and that's why you generally back up the command with the ecollar (with both methods actually).

RowdyGSP wrote:Is it even possible? A guy I know (wouldn't call him a buddy) says the trainer he's using FF'd his EP in 4 days completely finished. Says he's having his brittany "cost him money" because it's taking the brittany longer. When I FF'd my DK Tygh it took months, not days. Is there some method out there that I'm missing out on or is his pointer not truly finished (or probably even started) on FF? And yes he's the type of guy who hires people to train his dogs. I'm just very skeptical as this guy FF's britts and pointers, not real retrieving breeds like labs, chessies and every German breed. :D


We'd be interested in how he's doing it. I agree that the pointer is probably not "completely finished". Can you ask?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Buck Dancer » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm

I FF'd my Lab in about a week during the winter on my living room floor when he was about 10 month. He already knew hold and was a fetching fanatic before I started. FF was a breeze and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

I tried the same technique (Evan Graham's Smartworks) on my PP. First sign of ear pinch pressure he dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back. So I quickly gave up because I see that it will take a table, a chain, to keep him up, time, and patience with this dog as he knows more than one way to avoid pressure.

I guess it depends on the dog.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:12 pm

If he FF in 4 days I would like to learn his method.
My last DD took me 12 weeks and he is a smart pup , too smart sometimes. Forrest
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:09 pm

Buck Dancer wrote:I FF'd my Lab in about a week during the winter on my living room floor when he was about 10 month. He already knew hold and was a fetching fanatic before I started. FF was a breeze and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

I tried the same technique (Evan Graham's Smartworks) on my PP. First sign of ear pinch pressure he dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back. So I quickly gave up because I see that it will take a table, a chain, to keep him up, time, and patience with this dog as he knows more than one way to avoid pressure.

I guess it depends on the dog.


If you followed "SmartFetch" properly, there is NO WAY your dog could
" dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back".
What it should actually have needed was for you to follow the instructions.
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Last edited by Doc E on Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby RowdyGSP » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:01 pm

Thanks guys, kind of what I figured. No way in hell. And yeah he's saying the pointer is completely FF'd so I want to see some videos of it on dead birds. I asked him. I mean who knows, maybe he found the world's best dog trainer that no one else knows about.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Buck Dancer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:23 pm

Doc E wrote:
Buck Dancer wrote:I FF'd my Lab in about a week during the winter on my living room floor when he was about 10 month. He already knew hold and was a fetching fanatic before I started. FF was a breeze and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

I tried the same technique (Evan Graham's Smartworks) on my PP. First sign of ear pinch pressure he dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back. So I quickly gave up because I see that it will take a table, a chain, to keep him up, time, and patience with this dog as he knows more than one way to avoid pressure.

I guess it depends on the dog.


If you followed "SmartFetch" properly, there is NO WAY your dog could
" dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back".
What it should actually have needed was for you to follow the instructions.
.


I know that you are a know it all, so why is there no way he could dive bomb to the floor and roll on his back when holding the collar with three fingers while pinching?

I followed the DVDs exactly, and just rewatched the Smart Fetch DVD to make sure I did not miss anything. It worked like magic with my Lab (as I mentioned, it took about a week after hold and hold and walk were rock solid). My PP will most likely require a toe hitch and a table with a chain because he drops to the ground as soon as I start the pinch.

Evan works with Labs and teaches the ear pinch while he sits on a chair or bucket to save his back. Evan states that the final force fetch (after hold is solid) can be done in a few days with some dogs and while others will take several weeks. He also mentioned in the DVD that pointer trainers most often use the to hitch and table.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:49 pm

Buck Dancer wrote:
Doc E wrote:
Buck Dancer wrote:I FF'd my Lab in about a week during the winter on my living room floor when he was about 10 month. He already knew hold and was a fetching fanatic before I started. FF was a breeze and I wondered what all the fuss was about.

I tried the same technique (Evan Graham's Smartworks) on my PP. First sign of ear pinch pressure he dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back. So I quickly gave up because I see that it will take a table, a chain, to keep him up, time, and patience with this dog as he knows more than one way to avoid pressure.

I guess it depends on the dog.


If you followed "SmartFetch" properly, there is NO WAY your dog could
" dive bombs to the floor and rolls on his back".
What it should actually have needed was for you to follow the instructions.
.



I know that you are a know it all, so why is there no way he could dive bomb to the floor and roll on his back when holding the collar with three fingers while pinching?

I followed the DVDs exactly, and just rewatched the Smart Fetch DVD to make sure I did not miss anything. It worked like magic with my Lab (as I mentioned, it took about a week after hold and hold and walk were rock solid). My PP will most likely require a toe hitch and a table with a chain because he drops to the ground as soon as I start the pinch.

Evan works with Labs and teaches the ear pinch while he sits on a chair or bucket to save his back. Evan states that the final force fetch (after hold is solid) can be done in a few days with some dogs and while others will take several weeks. He also mentioned in the DVD that pointer trainers most often use the to hitch and table.


Because they can't if the ear hold is correct. I've posted pictures of it before on here. Jowl pinch first, then ear pinch. If he dove to the floor, you were using way too much pressure. Doc isn't a know it all, he's just very competent about force fetch.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:03 pm

Buck Dancer, for what it's worth Evan actually writes about avoidance behavior by some dogs in SmartFetch, particularly during the first few sessions of foundation work where you're just trying to get the dog to accept the dummy in its mouth. Long before ear pinch. The key is you cannot let thr dog win with that behavior, you create a bigger issue then.

How long did you do the foundation work before going to ear pinch? How far in front of the dog's mouth did you hold the dummy the first time you ear-pinched? It should be right in front of it's mouth, like almost touching it's mouth so that when you say Fetch and pinch simultaneously and the dog opens its mouth it really can't help but get the dummy in it's mouth and the pressure goes away immediately. From my first and second dog I learned that even holding it just a couple inches out in front (like I did with my first) can cause an issue.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Buck Dancer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:12 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Because they can't if the ear hold is correct. I've posted pictures of it before on here. Jowl pinch first, then ear pinch. If he dove to the floor, you were using way too much pressure. Doc isn't a know it all, he's just very competent about force fetch.


I never asked how to force fetch. I only answered the "FF in 4 day" question with my sample of two dogs. One was a piece of cake to FF and the other will be much more time consuming. So based on my experience, if you don't count hold, hold and walk, e collar conditioning, pressure conditioning, OB etc... the FF part of it could be done in 4 days, but the FF is the final piece of the puzzle. A raw dog with little training would take much longer just to get to FF with a trainer because they would need to do all the steps before the actual FF.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:03 pm

Anyhow, here is a picture of the correct method to hold the ear. They can't turn out, they can't turn in, they can't bite. You have total control Image
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