2019 Invitational

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2019 Invitational

Postby jlw034 » Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:41 pm

Received the running list today. 140 registered dogs. WOW. I figure some will drop, but that is a lot of dogs. They must run at least 3 fields at a time.

Anyone else here going? How's training going? Finally heating up here in Minnesota, which is good. Gonna need all the acclimation we can get for Ohio.

To those that have run before (or just have some insight), is there anything you wished you had trained for, but didn't? Just looking for any advice I can get.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby orhunter » Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:50 pm

I watched it at that test sight so might be of some help.

The field cover is thick with paths cut through it. Not typical cover you'd actually hunt.

Depending on how many dogs have run before your dog, the field could be full of birds or fairly thin. Bird scent can be buried pretty deep in the cover.

Make sure your dog will back. Some dogs have trouble passing this because the backing dog can't see the pointing dog.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby Fun Dog » Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:20 am

There are 3 fields. A couple have thick grass. The birds can disappear in it. The other has lighter cover. They put out 12 to 15 birds per brace so be prepared for a lot of bird contact. And a lot of backing. Also be prepared for birds just walking around. As for weather, be prepared for anything. Rain, sun, and especially fog. We ran in the morning after a rain and with heavy fog. It was wet, very wet. There are plenty of water stations if it is hot. Make use of them. Offer your dog water after every bird contact even if you don’t think they need it. It’s a great way to reconnect.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:19 pm

In addition to what's already been posted...

Train for multiple retrieves in the field from one point. If your dog's on point and the gunners put up a bird and shoot it, but it's not the one your dog is pointing, you'll be expected to retrieve both.

Work the field with a number of different dogs, at different levels of training. Believe it or not, dogs blow up in the field and seem to forget everything they know...breaking, stealing point, etc.

Prepare for handler's frequently hacking their dog in the field. If your dog's not used to it, it could cause problems.

Teach your dog to handle in the water.

Expect the unexpected. Last year at the double mark, the second duck didn't launch during our test. We heeled back out and had to wait for a pickup dog to get the first. Once ready, we heeled back in again and went through the sequence.

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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby Urban_Redneck » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:23 am

140 dogs

I've heard some talk that qualifying for the Invitational will get tougher after 2021 (NM). Requiring a second UT1 was one proposal I heard, seems a big concern is the number of dogs that show up obviously unprepared. For the time foreseeable, NAVHDA would like to keep it to 100 entrants.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby JONOV » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:17 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:140 dogs

I've heard some talk that qualifying for the Invitational will get tougher after 2021 (NM). Requiring a second UT1 was one proposal I heard, seems a big concern is the number of dogs that show up obviously unprepared. For the time foreseeable, NAVHDA would like to keep it to 100 entrants.

IMO rather than requiring a second UT test, which is honestly difficult for handlers since they have to pay and often travel, it would be better to raise the bar for a UT-1. Or within the UT-1 parameters make something a requirement that in order to go to Invitational you have to have a 4 in cooperation or obedience or both.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby orhunter » Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:37 pm

JONOV: That's the most practical.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby jlw034 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:42 am

JONOV wrote:
Urban_Redneck wrote:140 dogs

I've heard some talk that qualifying for the Invitational will get tougher after 2021 (NM). Requiring a second UT1 was one proposal I heard, seems a big concern is the number of dogs that show up obviously unprepared. For the time foreseeable, NAVHDA would like to keep it to 100 entrants.

IMO rather than requiring a second UT test, which is honestly difficult for handlers since they have to pay and often travel, it would be better to raise the bar for a UT-1. Or within the UT-1 parameters make something a requirement that in order to go to Invitational you have to have a 4 in cooperation or obedience or both.


Why a 4 in those categories? Is that something lacking in a lot of invitational dogs? Just curious, I only know a few VCs.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:03 am

I think the more obvious solution is having two Invitational sites and tests a year. Does not make sense to require folks to travel the distances required for many in the first place. Its a Hunt Test not a National Championship.

Working with a Bracemate would seem to be the major difference and challenge for alot of dogs/handlers and I do not see how different emphasis on the dog's score in their single UT Prize 1 is going to change that. Passing two UTs Prize 1 would demonstrate a solid level of repeatable training in the dog and elevate the dogs qualifying to run in the Inv.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby orhunter » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:23 am

AG:

Having a western test has been discussed pretty thoroughly by NAVHDA and a few years back it was decided to keep things as they are. NAVHDA participation isn't as strong in the west and they fear not getting enough entrants to warrant a change. They figured it was better to have those few people from the west drive east rather than having many more folks from the east driving west. Two tests per year does make some sense.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby ryanr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:49 am

Orhunter, the 2021 Invitational is in New Mexico.

The amount of planning, legwork and number of volunteers it takes to pull it off makes having two Invitationals per year exceedingly difficult. Judges and other volunteers basically cover their own expenses and burn their own vacation time. Having two has been discussed by International before but it's just near impossible.

It's a little more than just a hunt test. For starters, not just any NAVHDA dog can enter it. It is an Invitational, which denotes something special or extra. For NAVHDA purposes, it is our National (there is only one after all) and the only test where a dog can become Versatile Champion and have its name so designated forever on its pedigree.

Interesting about the possibility of requiring two UT1's, I hadn't heard that. Just my opinion but I have my doubts it will end up the approved solution. These committees discuss a lot of different proposals, etc and not all gain approval. They're always reviewing things.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:17 am

Yea I assume all who posted here understand a UT Prize 1 in the preceding year is needed to enter the Inv.

That in no way makes it anything but a Hunt Test with an eligibility requirement. The judging is against a standard and every dog that runs can pass and achieve a VC title. That would be the definition of a Hunt Test.

The crew of Judges required to walk an hour in the field judging 140 dogs would seem to be logically larger than what is required to judge 70 dogs, so I think the likely outcome would be sending the same number of Judges to two different locations. Resources that are unwilling to travel to single location 1000 or more miles away may very well be willing to travel distances half or less of that.

I can tell you I would never travel 1000 miles east of where I live for a Hunt Test in September. I would travel 1000 miles west for a Hunt Test which I would combine with some wild bird hunting in the same trip. Would do the same to work at the test and hunt afterwards.

One thing is certain, if nothing changes, nothing will change.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby Urban_Redneck » Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:50 am

The only thing that's for certain is that any "solution" will leave some good dogs/handlers licking the window.

One way to possibly improve scores would be to run braces in the UPT, and then giving preference to those dogs that had prized 1 in both the UPT and the UT.

It's an interesting discussion.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:01 am

Urban_Redneck wrote:The only thing that's for certain is that any "solution" will leave some good dogs/handlers licking the window.

One way to possibly improve scores would be to run braces in the UPT, and then giving preference to those dogs that had prized 1 in both the UPT and the UT.

It's an interesting discussion.


How would running two tests at two sites "leave good dogs/handlers licking the window"? I see it as offering more opportunity not less.

UPT is for unfinished dogs. Running Braces Mates in a UPT would alter it into something unrecognizable to its current form and purpose. Running two dogs which have never met, not required to be steady to fall or trained to back, in a test shooting and retrieving live birds is a train wreck waiting to happen. I would never enter a test such as that.

How about this?

Create a test for UT Prize 1 dogs consisting only of running with a bracemate in an upland format for say 30 minutes as an additional eligibility requirement for the Inv. Let every chapter running UTs add this small and short in duration eligibility test to their overall test formats. It would help reduce folks getting derailed at the Inv by a Bracemate that should not be running in the first place.
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Re: 2019 Invitational

Postby ryanr » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:52 am

Like I said, there just aren't enough people necessary to put on an Invitational in 2 locations per year. That's just one very important sticking point. And I believe one judging team can judge up to 6 braces per day. The number of people required to run a successful Invitational is incredible. It is so much more involved than a chapter putting on a UT, which itself takes a lot of effort. And judging by the amount of grief and headache a chapter test secretary often endures, I think a number of handlers have no idea how much work is involved just in that. And by no means is that statement specifically directed at anybody here.

And from Sacramento to Searsboro, Iowa is about 26 hours driving (1700 miles) and from NYC to Searsboro is about 16 hours (around 1000 hours.) So I don't think there's a substantially more difficult time for Western handlers to get to Iowa vs Eastern handlers. Now Ohio, okay that's a little different story but even Ohio isn't exactly in the East either (it's 5 hours just to drive across PA) but yes I certainly understand it's easier for the Eastern handlers to drive to compared to the West.

Personally I don't really know that anything needs a solution or changing.
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