To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Willie T » Tue Feb 26, 2019 3:24 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Relative to hunting upland birds, I find way more is made of steady to fall than is reality.

Far more often than not the cover would not allow any dog to mark 4 birds shot off a covey rise where we most commonly hunt bobwhites. The dog is going to be focused on the bird it saw fall first and have to do a diligent job of hunting dead on command from there. On pheasants, I like a dog getting on the bird the quicker the better and the vast majority of the roosters I shoot are singles anyway.

When a dog recovers 100% of what hits the ground it would seem to be a manufactured "problem" or "advantage" to claim the dog would be better doing something different.

Steady to fall while hunting upland birds is for those who like to train and handle their dogs a lot. I enjoy training during the off seasons and do more than most, but I also enjoy a quiet hassle free experience while hunting. The less I have to correct or handle my dog while hunting the better I like it.

The subjects I train on in the off seasons are those which bring tangible benefits to our hunting and there is a lot to cover when Waterfowl, Blind Retrieve handling and blood tracking are added to the mix. Training for subjects which I perceive do not bring us increased success in the field does not rise to the level of priority of those that do.

Good luck finding others to hunt with that have their dogs trained to be steady to fall. I have a FB account and a pretty big list of folks who are very avid wild upland bird hunters. Many of them train and test their dogs as well in Hunt Tests which require their dogs to be steady to WSF in the Test (as my dog was in his UT). These are accomplished dog people and avid hunters.

I asked them how many maintained their dogs to be steady to fall through the upland bird hunting seasons. Every person who responded said they let their dogs break to retrieve through the hunting seasons and retrained to the higher standard before running a Hunt Test.


You are wired a bit different than me AG. I stick to my opinion, that the better handlers train their dogs to work in the manner that best suits where and what they hunt. They also don't get overly concerned by how others run their dogs or with Internet training, but instead focus on what best suits what they do with their dogs and their abilities as a trainer/handler. I am respectful of that and enjoy reading what others do with their dogs. That has little impact on what I do with mine. I sometimes share some of the things I do with my dog(s) and why. I am well past trying to prove anything, but simply sharing with others. I was fortunate to grow up around dog men who shared their experiences and knowledge with me. I feel as though you are calling me out in this thread, so I will briefly reply.

Your assessment of a steady focused dog, talented enough to mark and retrieve multiples is way off base. It is not for the guy that wants to train rather than hunt, or for the guy that prefers to handle the dog during the hunt. In fact it is the opposite. The dog is given more trust and actually freed up and allowed to utilize more of its capabilities with NO HANDLER INPUT. The dog does not need to be told to hunt dead, nor does it need to be handled to the area of the fall on multiples.
The handler simply speaks the name of the dog and he retrieves the bird to heel and delivers. The dogs name is spoken again and the next bird is retrieved. If there are multiple dogs, the other dogs honor. It is seamless and silent. The unknowing often fail to recognize what just happened.
Breaking to get to down birds quicker does not have much relevance to me. If a dog struggles to track a cripple rooster, there is a more pressing issue than whether it breaks or not. When hunting multiple high drive dogs at the same time, breaking leads to chaos at the bird and poor bird handling manners as well.
To your next jab, I certainly have not experienced any issues with others not wanting to hunt with my dog. In fact I find it to be the opposite...A steady dog hunts with other dogs without conflict. Regardless of whether other dog break or not, it simply honors.

If you're content with the way your dog works, you don't need to justify it.

Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Feb 26, 2019 5:16 pm

Willie T, But for the last sentence I am the same as your first paragraph. You are reading me wrong. I respect your opinion always and look forward to learning it each time you post.

I simply posted my view on this narrow subject supported with my reasoning.

The list of folks I inquired with on this subject (weeks before this thread) includes folks who have put multiple VC, UT, MH titles on multiple dogs, several AKC and NAVHDA Judges, and all are highly experienced and successful wild bird hunters. The consensus was/is the PITA factor outweighs the benefits so they, like me, don't spoil their fun trying to keep their dogs steady to fall when hunting upland birds. They retrain, run and pass tests during the off season.

Which has no bearing on what others choose to do with their dogs but I think it is interesting and germane to the discussion so I shared it.

I hope we agree there is room for differing opinions on this Forum as otherwise what is the point of it?
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2200
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:14 pm

Well it seems a bit off topic, but it was before i got here, so heres a question.

So two roosters. Both shot at different times, but can run. One drops at 50 yards. One at 150. Clearly it takes the dog longer to get to the 150 yard bird. Are you saying that bird is lost? If you have ten like that, how many will you lose????
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:53 pm

My dog recovered every crippled rooster that hit the ground this season but one. The dog was on point in a large area of cattails up to my nose as I waded towards him using the Garmin GPS to navigate, birds were flushing close and far, and I dropped a winged but very much still alive rooster into the middle of it. No mark possible for a dog buried in cattails, more live birds some sitting and some flushing in the area of the fall when we arrived, and a sea of smoking hot scent from 50+ pheasants. It was mission impossible from the outset.

Adding to the challenge: in the process of the dog hunting dead as I asked him to do he then found a large boar coon and a fight erupted. I used the ecollar to break it up, backed out for a moment and then went back in to try and find the rooster hoping the coon had moved on. Another coon fight erupted which I again broke up. (We had been to the vet the day before due to a porcupine incident which could have been avoided with better dog handling on my part and I was not anxious for a repeat visit ...) I accepted defeat and moved on.

My GWPS have all excelled at recovering downed game of all types and this one is no different.
Last edited by AverageGuy on Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2200
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Willie T » Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:12 pm

To the OP, my apologies for the derail.

AG, it's all good. On a personal level that I alluded to earlier. If the standard is set and maintained early, it is what the dog knows and how it operates. In that scenario it takes very little to maintain. However, once the cat is let out of the bag, the dog is receiving mixed signals. At that point, I question enforcing it, out of fairness to the dog.

Kiger, I can't say he would get all 10, till after they were in the bag. Experience tells me he is capable and I would be disappointed if he did not. One of my mentors told me over 50 years ago, "never brag on your dog, or your shooting. Either one can blow up when you least expect it."
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Feb 28, 2019 5:53 pm

This was not a question about your personal dogs.

The theory is that a dog that breaks on the shot will recover more birds. So if its critical for the dog to break to get a 50 yard bird, Wouldnt that mean that the 150 bird is Lost? Because the dog got there 10 seconds later?
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1079
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby ryanr » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:07 am

Kiger2 wrote:This was not a question about your personal dogs.

The theory is that a dog that breaks on the shot will recover more birds. So if its critical for the dog to break to get a 50 yard bird, Wouldnt that mean that the 150 bird is Lost? Because the dog got there 10 seconds later?


It's birdhunting, relax Francis. Sheesh.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2388
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby ryanr » Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:07 am

Kiger2 wrote:This was not a question about your personal dogs.

The theory is that a dog that breaks on the shot will recover more birds. So if its critical for the dog to break to get a 50 yard bird, Wouldnt that mean that the 150 bird is Lost? Because the dog got there 10 seconds later?


It's birdhunting, relax Francis. Sheesh.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2388
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby ANick » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:32 pm

ryanr wrote:
Kiger2 wrote:This was not a question about your personal dogs.

The theory is that a dog that breaks on the shot will recover more birds. So if its critical for the dog to break to get a 50 yard bird, Wouldnt that mean that the 150 bird is Lost? Because the dog got there 10 seconds later?


It's birdhunting, relax Francis. Sheesh.



Rynar,
You almost killed me with that one!! I hate coffee through the nose..

Nick
ANick
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:03 pm

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Mar 04, 2019 11:05 am

Couple things Mastercaster. First, when Steve says upper thigh he means the crease right where thigh and hip joints. If it's still uncomfortable, add a pad. Second, don't put the stock too close to one of your balls incase it slips off :lol: :lol: . I speak from experience. Third, don't worry about how the pup carries a goose. He'll figure it out. It ain't worth the battle especially if he's just your hunting dog.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1357
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:19 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Couple things Mastercaster. First, when Steve says upper thigh he means the crease right where thigh and hip joints. If it's still uncomfortable, add a pad. Second, don't put the stock too close to one of your balls incase it slips off :lol: :lol: . I speak from experience. Third, don't worry about how the pup carries a goose. He'll figure it out. It ain't worth the battle especially if he's just your hunting dog.


I think I'd rather have a scope cut above the eye instead of that happening! LOL
mastercaster
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:24 pm

Previous

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests