Getting a dog pointing

[Willie T]

Wille, I disagree that getting the bird in the mouth is the goal. Lots of really good pointing dogs over the years wont pick up birds, thus FF. I suspect though cant prove it, there is some type of endorphin rush for a dog on point. The Op's problem is the dog is getting more rush from chase and perhaps catch at this point.

Kiger, have you been smoking something out there in Oregon? The dog pointing the bird. The hunter flushing and shooting the bird. The dog retrieving the bird to hand is absolutely the goal.
IDHunters dog quit pointing and started taking birds out when it got one in its mouth on its own. Hence the age old wisdom by the guys that train with pen raised birds “never to let it catch one on it’s own”. His issue of the dog catching a bird on its own, resulting in his dog stopping pointing and intentionally taking birds out in an attempt to get another one in its mouth is common and predictable. That is the topic of this discussion that IDHunter has asked for our help with. Harnessing the power behind that and using it as positive reinforcement is the most powerful motivation a trainer can tap into with a “normal” bird dog, which IDHunter obviously has.
Also, while force fetch will get a dog that does not want a bird in its mouth to retrieve one, those dogs are not the norm, or the ones I want, or else they were not introduced to birds at a young age. These versatile breeds are absolutely bred to want a bird in their mouth. That desire is so strong it is commonly used to get a puppy to willingly bail into the water that otherwise does not want to go. Stay on topic here Kiger and let’s help IDHunter with HIS dog.
Willie

[AverageGuy]

I said nothing while stimulating her until she broke off and swung back my way because I wanted her to have a negative association with those animals.

I have said all along I stimulate the dog at the same time I give the fully trained Whoa command and end the stimulation the moment he stops moving.

I understand the first case but not sure about the second. Are these two different situations where you stimulate?

t

Yes the second situation I mention is a dog which has gone through the Perfection Kennels progression of Whoa training and will now stand flying birds flushed from its points. Then while hunting if the dog does not heed its training and it starts to chase a bird when it flushes, I say Whoa and stimulate.

You have seen it many times at Jon's. You have to read the thread to understand the discussion and context.

Bruce advocates shocking this pup in complete silence when it takes out a bird. He posted no context, no prior training of Whoa, and specifically argued against using a Whoa command up until his very last post in the thread, telling me numerous times it does not Work.

We are advising a new Handler working with his puppy in its first season in this thread.

The pup has had no Whoa or steadiness training.

Starting that training by shocking the puppy when it takes out a bird, using no command, trained and proofed prior, but rather just shocking the pup in complete silence for taking out a bird, is a recipe for DISASTER!

Which is why I have taken so much time to oppose that advice in this thread. I pointed out that using that approach is in fact exactly how we break dogs off of running deer and coyotes (you have to read the thread Terry). Shocking a dog in silence when it chases an animal is a great way to teach the dog to avoid that animal entirely.

Instead I have suggested (as have just about every other poster in this thread) that a progress of steadiness training centering around a well trained Whoa command should be used after this pup's first hunting season (which is about over now anyway and there is not time to get the training done now before the end of season) to teach steadiness in the normal progression and then use that trained command to address the pup's love of flushing and chasing birds (which many good and great puppies love to do early on).

[AverageGuy]

IDHunter,

Thought of you and your pup while hunting bobwhites the past two days with my pup.

She jumped and chased several whitetails and coyotes at close range. I stimulated her while I remained silent because that approach will make her associate the stimulation with the deer and the coyotes. Which is why I would never just shock a puppy for chasing a bird without having first given a fully trained Whoa command while doing it. I do not want my pup to get a negative association with birds. I do want the puppy to get a negative association with deer and coyotes. Hence why two distinctly different approaches are used to address each.

On the last drop of the day my pup found two coveys of Bobwhites. Cover prevented me from seeing exactly what happened but both times there were birds in the air and my pup was chasing flying birds. She may have seen movement and she cannot stand the pressure of movement at this stage of her development. It triggers her prey drive and she goes in hard when birds move.

After she had chased the flying quail far enough to suit me, I gave the ecollar tone trained for recall, twice, then I gave her low 2 level stimulation when she did not turn off her chase. She then broke off her chase, turned and looped back to me, wide eyed and jacked up from the excitement! Which is a great thing.

She knows the tone means recall and so she properly understands that the light stimulation was due to her not heeding the tone que for recall. If I had not trained that recall process and use of ecollar in many other distractions prior I would have had to use a much higher level of stimulation to break her off her chase and that would not be good for her development. At all.

After a bit I swung her down into the cover where numerous birds had flown and a great transformation occurred. She pointed 5 singles in a row and I was able to shoot 4 of them. That is how this development of a puppy often works.

Best of Luck with your Pup. Send me a PM if I can help.

[AverageGuy]

Kiger2,

Don't jump into a 6 page discussion and give me advice which completely misconstrues my prior posts.

Read my post on page 3, or better yet read the entire thread before commenting, even better perhaps take a pass on commenting at all if you have nothing beneficial to add.

Clearly I understand that a trained Whoa command will be combined with an ecollar as part of complete chain of end to end steadiness training and I don't need any schooling from you on this subject.

Most important, I do not think these discussions are remotely adequate for teaching IDHunter how to train his puppy, which is why I have advocated numerous times that he buy and follow the Perfect Start DVD.

[IDHunter]

IDHunter,

Thought of you and your pup while hunting bobwhites the past two days with my pup.

She jumped and chased several whitetails and coyotes at close range. I stimulated her while I remained silent because that approach will make her associate the stimulation with the deer and the coyotes. Which is why I would never just shock a puppy for chasing a bird without having first given a fully trained Whoa command while doing it. I do not want my pup to get a negative association with birds. I do want the puppy to get a negative association with deer and coyotes. Hence why two distinctly different approaches are used to address each.

On the last drop of the day my pup found two coveys of Bobwhites. Cover prevented me from seeing exactly what happened but both times there were birds in the air and my pup was chasing flying birds. She may have seen movement and she cannot stand the pressure of movement at this stage of her development. It triggers her prey drive and she goes in hard when birds move.

After she had chased the flying quail far enough to suit me, I gave the ecollar tone trained for recall, twice, then I gave her low 2 level stimulation when she did not turn off her chase. She then broke off her chase, turned and looped back to me, wide eyed and jacked up from the excitement! Which is a great thing.

She knows the tone means recall and so she properly understands that the light stimulation was due to her not heeding the tone que for recall. If I had not trained that recall process and use of ecollar in many other distractions prior I would have had to use a much higher level of stimulation to break her off her chase and that would not be good for her development. At all.

After a bit I swung her down into the cover where numerous birds had flown and a great transformation occurred. She pointed 5 singles in a row and I was able to shoot 4 of them. That is how this development of a puppy often works.

Best of Luck with your Pup. Send me a PM if I can help.

AG, sounds like a good day with the dog. Thanks for sharing. The approach you're using is what I'm working on modeling with my dog. Hopefully we achieve the same results. We've had plenty of coyote and deer encounters while chasing birds this year. So far we've had no coyote chases, and only two deer chases. Those were cut off with instant stim and the pup seemed to learn pretty quick from them because he has watched deer trot away several times now without giving chase. As for birds, I'll continue to use the tone recall as a first attempt to cut off chasing, and like you said will then apply low level stim if needed.

[IDHunter]

Couple of things,

First for IDhunter.

I would never put off time training and let pup continue to misbehave just to get time afield.

Since it. seems you have access to pigeons, I would do a modified Ferris approach. I would get as many homers as you can. Go to a big field. Show pup the pigeon in your hand and tease him briefly. Then release the pigeon into the air and let pup chase. Then repeat. No commands no corrections. Repeat until he quits his chase. Ive been doing this far longer than Ferris and I usually see results after just a few birds. Now I say usually. Like most things with dogs, there's always one.. May take a hundred? When he quits give him a couple more. Then do it again then next day. And then again the next day. He is responding in a conditioned way, you need to break that conditioning. Advantage is you dont have to worry about using the collar, which I suspect the dog isn't ready for anyway. Once pup has been conditioned then you can add the collar if needed.

While your doing this , you should also get the dog truly properly conditioned to the ecollar. Theres a reason most in the pointer world dont believe you can use the ecollar around birds.Its because they have historically done so without proper conditioning. The reason Ferris can stop the chase with an ecollar and have zero impact, is because his dogs have enough conditioning to understand what the correction is for. Think about it, if it was common to cause issues using Ferris methods, dont you think he would have seen it by now and stopped using it? When the dog is properly conditioned they know its not the bird giving the correction. In fact, after teaching and reinforcing just a few commands, pup knows exactly where the correction is coming from, whose responsible and is starting to associate it with a behavior. So when I stop my pups from chasing a deer, whether I say "no" or just stimulate or both, they know its the behavior of chasing the deer, its not the deer.

I would keep hunting but dont give any commands you cant enforce and only shoot pointed birds.

Bruce, if your dog wont stop reliably on "whoa" without the collar, then its not conditioned thoroughly.

So Averageguy , as you can see from the above, you can dechase with the collar.Its only bad advice if the dog is not prepared. (which gonehuntin stressed in an earlier post, Prepare the dog) As to deer or ??? The dog may not stop the chase with a voice only command, but if you dont have a voice command, the moment the chase is on and the ecollar isn't, you got nothing. The dog will get the same message whether you say "NO" or "Heel" or "whoa" and apply stimulation as it does with stimulation only. Its possible to make an argument that using "no" in conjunction with the stimulations may be more effective, the dogs get so much training with no, that they associate it with the behavior of chasing the deer.

Wille, I disagree that getting the bird in the mouth is the goal. Lots of really good pointing dogs over the years wont pick up birds, thus FF. I suspect though cant prove it, there is some type of endorphin rush for a dog on point. The Op's problem is the dog is getting more rush from chase and perhaps catch at this point.

I don't quite understand the recommendation of letting him chase as many pigeons as possible until he stops. As I mentioned before, he has been chasing birds pretty much since day 1. Not always game birds, but a good mix of game birds along with all the types of birds you encounter on runs in fields... sparrows, hawks, robins, among others. I let him do this without any consequence for months, as the advice of "let the birds teach the dog that he can't catch them" was one that I received early and I really tried to let it happen that way. Not catching those birds has never lead him to give up chasing. Myself and others have come to assume that he genuinely enjoys chasing, and isn't likely to stop it on his own...at least not any time soon. Hence the reason for a more involved approach to help him start learning that he can't chase.

Also, for what it's worth, I have met with one of the guys who does a lot of the training for Farris clients/dogs. He suggested using the collar to cut off the chase as well... given the age of my dog, plus the fact that he hasn't figured out not to chase on his own yet, and the fact that he HAS been collar conditioned. We have been using the e-collar for months and have conditioned him as best as I can after reading up on ways to do it. He is well trained on the tone recall, and he has always responded well (and properly) to stimulation corrections. We have had no negative experiences with the collar as far it "shutting him down" in any situation. He accepts the correction and immediately moves on.

Interestingly, the guy I worked with who trains for Farris is the one who said that we DO want the dog to associate the stim with the flying bird. No clue if that's correct or not in other people's eyes, but again just different advice depending on who you ask.

[AverageGuy]

Interestingly, the guy I worked with who trains for Farris is the one who said that we DO want the dog to associate the stim with the flying bird. No clue if that's correct or not in other people's eyes, but again just different advice depending on who you ask.

Yes that harkens to my prior post.

The theory is the pup is going to associate the stimulation with the flying bird but not a bird on the ground.

I do not buy it for one second. It runs a huge risk the dog simply associates the negative stimulation with all birds, sitting or flying, and that is not at all what you want with an 11 month old pup in its first season.

Far better to run through a progression of Whoa based, Stop to Flush training, then combine that fully trained verbal command with tossed birds, then pointed birds, and then once it is going well with training birds in controlled situations, use it while hunting.

Which is the STF advocacy, GH, Willie T, Dmog and Myself have all advocated. Bruce eventually got to some of that in his last post.

I am convinced your Pup needs STF training, as well as properly presented birds in launchers. Doing that is not as simple as just starting to shock your pup when it flushes birds while hunting.

Nothing suggests that a mainstream and much safer progression of standard STF training will not work just fine with your pup.

Use that before jumping to silently shocking your pup for chasing a flying bird with no associated and prior thoroughly trained Whoa command is my advice.

Your goal is for the pup to understand first that Whoa means Whoa no matter what is going on (which is what Slistoe said some time back in this thread), including flying birds, and after that, shot and falling birds until released to retrieve.

Combined with the pup understanding that pointing and allowing you to flush is the only successful strategy that ever yields a bird in the mouth which is where proper launcher work is very beneficial.

Willie T has highlighted it a couple of times. Your pup is using the only strategy that has ever gotten a bird in its mouth so far. This is not a hard case pup with no pointing instinct, it is a pup which has not had the proper progression of foundation laid.

Don't get in a hurry, you have all spring and summer to work on this, and stay with methods that have trained untold thousands of dogs.

[Dmog]

I don't quite understand the recommendation of letting him chase as many pigeons as possible until he stops. As I mentioned before, he has been chasing birds pretty much since day 1. Not always game birds, but a good mix of game birds along with all the types of birds you encounter on runs in fields... sparrows, hawks, robins, among others. I let him do this without any consequence for months, as the advice of "let the birds teach the dog that he can't catch them" was one that I received early and I really tried to let it happen that way. Not catching those birds has never lead him to give up chasing. Myself and others have come to assume that he genuinely enjoys chasing, and isn't likely to stop it on his own...at least not any time soon. Hence the reason for a more involved approach to help him start learning that he can't chase.

Also, for what it's worth, I have met with one of the guys who does a lot of the training for Farris clients/dogs. He suggested using the collar to cut off the chase as well... given the age of my dog, plus the fact that he hasn't figured out not to chase on his own yet, and the fact that he HAS been collar conditioned. We have been using the e-collar for months and have conditioned him as best as I can after reading up on ways to do it. He is well trained on the tone recall, and he has always responded well (and properly) to stimulation corrections. We have had no negative experiences with the collar as far it "shutting him down" in any situation. He accepts the correction and immediately moves on.

Interestingly, the guy I worked with who trains for Farris is the one who said that we DO want the dog to associate the stim with the flying bird. No clue if that's correct or not in other people's eyes, but again just different advice depending on who you ask.

For what it is worth, Standing Stone Kennels has posted youtube videos on "Positive Pigeon Training" that is described. You can actually get some dogs to start hesitating and training for steadiness from this hesitation. Personally, I do not think you will ever get your pup to stop chasing but you would get the pause and shorten the chase by desensitizing this way. This method then would require/benefit from the ecollar used when the pup starts the pause. In fact, I have personally been in a seminar with Ethan Pippitt where he took this pause transition from flying these pigeons, conditioned the pup to an ecollar on the belly and steadied the pup up. This is steadiness training. I think we are discussing "Whoa" which I think precedes "Steadiness". I do agree that "Positive Pigeon Training" should desensitize the chase. However, I would recommend you stay the course you have indicated.

[Bruce Schwartz]

I would never just shock a puppy for chasing a bird without having first given a fully trained Whoa command while doing it....

... both times there were birds in the air and my pup was chasing flying birds...

After she had chased the flying quail far enough to suit me, I gave the ecollar tone trained for recall, twice, then I gave her low 2 level stimulation when she did not turn off her chase. She then broke off her chase, turned and looped back to me, wide eyed and jacked up from the excitement! Which is a great thing...

Did you just say she ignored your "tone trained for recall" - twice? Did you then stimulate her when she ignored your "tone trained recall"?

Maybe you should have given your "fully trained Whoa command" first.

There's a great DVD called Perfect Start/Perfect Finish I can recommend.

[AverageGuy]

I would never just shock a puppy for chasing a bird without having first given a fully trained Whoa command while doing it....

... both times there were birds in the air and my pup was chasing flying birds...

After she had chased the flying quail far enough to suit me, I gave the ecollar tone trained for recall, twice, then I gave her low 2 level stimulation when she did not turn off her chase. She then broke off her chase, turned and looped back to me, wide eyed and jacked up from the excitement! Which is a great thing...

Did you just say she ignored your "tone trained for recall" - twice? Did you then stimulate her when she ignored your "tone trained recall"?

Maybe you should have given your "fully trained Whoa command" first.

There's a great DVD called Perfect Start/Perfect Finish I can recommend.

I choose to assume you are shooting for a little humor here Bruce. A little is what you got.

Yea, this pup turned a year old last week. Her Whoa command is not remotely fully trained at this point, but it will be well trained before I begin steading her up after this first hunting season closes. The better trained that Whoa command is the easier the Steadiness training goes.

Her recall is actually pretty good, but she is a hard going, hard headed little gal. When she is in a dead run full pursuit of a bird you can bet she will need some ecollar reminder following that tone.

The good and important thing, in case you missed it again, is she understood the ecollar correction completely and she harbors no ill-will towards the bird she was chasing.

On the whole she is a handful and it will be awhile before she is where I want the finished product to be.

She has handled doves, waterfowl, hunted up, pointed and retrieved multiple limits of Sharptails, Prairie Chickens, Roosters and some Bobwhites so far. Handled wild birds in 5 States.

Went NA 112 and One NAHRA pass at 7 months.

I like her!

Rest Assured Bruce, This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKBt6XWhPDE

Will become This, In Time and then we will be ready to begin steadiness training on birds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DK1rw-WjNo

[AverageGuy]

I don't quite understand the recommendation of letting him chase as many pigeons as possible until he stops. As I mentioned before, he has been chasing birds pretty much since day 1. Not always game birds, but a good mix of game birds along with all the types of birds you encounter on runs in fields... sparrows, hawks, robins, among others. I let him do this without any consequence for months, as the advice of "let the birds teach the dog that he can't catch them" was one that I received early and I really tried to let it happen that way. Not catching those birds has never lead him to give up chasing. Myself and others have come to assume that he genuinely enjoys chasing, and isn't likely to stop it on his own...at least not any time soon. Hence the reason for a more involved approach to help him start learning that he can't chase.

Also, for what it's worth, I have met with one of the guys who does a lot of the training for Farris clients/dogs. He suggested using the collar to cut off the chase as well... given the age of my dog, plus the fact that he hasn't figured out not to chase on his own yet, and the fact that he HAS been collar conditioned. We have been using the e-collar for months and have conditioned him as best as I can after reading up on ways to do it. He is well trained on the tone recall, and he has always responded well (and properly) to stimulation corrections. We have had no negative experiences with the collar as far it "shutting him down" in any situation. He accepts the correction and immediately moves on.

Interestingly, the guy I worked with who trains for Farris is the one who said that we DO want the dog to associate the stim with the flying bird. No clue if that's correct or not in other people's eyes, but again just different advice depending on who you ask.

For what it is worth, Standing Stone Kennels has posted youtube videos on "Positive Pigeon Training" that is described. You can actually get some dogs to start hesitating and training for steadiness from this hesitation. Personally, I do not think you will ever get your pup to stop chasing but you would get the pause and shorten the chase by desensitizing this way. This method then would require/benefit from the ecollar used when the pup starts the pause. In fact, I have personally been in a seminar with Ethan Pippitt where he took this pause transition from flying these pigeons, conditioned the pup to an ecollar on the belly and steadied the pup up. This is steadiness training. I think we are discussing "Whoa" which I think precedes "Steadiness". I do agree that "Positive Pigeon Training" should desensitize the chase. However, I would recommend you stay the course you have indicated.

The pup is WAY past the point where that "positive pigeon training" would have done any good. The amount of stimulation required now to break this hard chasing pup off a tossed bird absent any associated trained Whoa command makes that a really poor approach. This is an 11 month old pup which chases birds 300 yards.

Somewhat on topic the whole "positive pigeon training" process of holding out a pigeon, saying Whoa, releasing the pigeon and letting the puppy chase it, is frankly teaching the exact wrong behavior relative to the Whoa command. Saying Whoa and then letting the puppy chase the flown bird is the opposite of Whoa. But some people watch it and think it is the thing to do ...

The humane best thing for this dog is to teach Whoa really well away from birds and proof it in many high distraction situations and then move to flying birds and using the Whoa command and an ecollar to stop the dog at the lowest level of stimulation that will stop the dog. Starting a considerable distance from the dog when releasing the pigeon will make it easier on the dog and of course having said Whoa the dog at least knows it is supposed to stand still and then will understand the correction when it does not.

This Vizsla pup is the same age as Tess. We 4 were at Perfection Kennel doing some gun acclimation work this summer and Paul and I attended a Start/Finish and Broke Dog clinics there this summer as well. This is what a well trained Whoa command going into steadiness training can do for you and your dog. This video is the first time the already trained Whoa command is being combined with flown birds. For a dog like IDHunter's the birds would be flown much further away from his dog to start, which will make it much easier for the dog. As the dog is standing correctly then you increase the pressure by having the person tossing birds move closer.

The whole process starts with a well trained Whoa Command and prior ecollar conditioning which was done when Recall was trained.

https://www.facebook.com/PerfectionKenn ... 703662992/

Same dog Another Session. Full of excellent information. Many more free videos on their FB page.

https://www.facebook.com/PerfectionKenn ... 2900057394

[Bruce Schwartz]

IDHunter: Dog training involves balancing your dog’s instincts (or desires) against yours. For most situations it’s pretty easy and you get to choose between older methods of modifying its behavior: “sit or I’ll use a newspaper on your butt” or newer ones: “sit and I’ll give you a cookie.” Fetching (or force fetching) is no different: “pick up the dummy and I’ll give you a treat” vs. “pick up the dummy and I’ll stop pinching your ear.” Regardless, in gun dog training compliance is everything so we use the ecollar to reinforce most commands.

When it comes to pointing and holding birds, however, the process becomes more nuanced. You want your dog to hunt with every ounce of desire it can muster, but after it finds birds you want it to freeze and stay put until you shoot one for it (and it gets tougher once you’ve taught the dog that it can catch a bird by skipping the “freeze” part).

So, on the internet you'll get recommendations for STF training, wearing down the dog with bird after bird until it gives up, shoring up the whoa training, spinning the dog, shocking the dog, calling your breeder, bringing the dog back and tell it to think it over, etc.

On page three I suggested you hunt the dog the rest of the season but “IF you wish to hurry things up” I gave you a basic STF technique and cited its origin and then cited an authority who espouses it. Most trainers now use a variation of it or at least have the technique in their toolbox for problem situations. I don’t think any of the suggestions you’ve received are “bad” and think Kiger got a bad rap for espousing a perfectly good and common practice.

I totally agree with GH’s and AG’s recommendations to choose a popular program and stick to it. I can personally recommend Bob Farris’ book, “Breeding and Training Versatile Hunting Dogs for Hunting and Hunt Tests”. It’s one of the best in IMO and has several pages of “whoa” training before ever mentioning his STF technique.

Once your dog is over its issues you’ll be an expert like the rest of us. Just be careful as you work out the balance between your dog’s desires and your own.

[birddogger2]

This type of training really highlights the need for having your own birds. Gonna have to get creative and see if I can figure out a way to do that without getting dinged by the HOA.

......................................
I have a possible solution to your pigeon situation. It involves converting a dog crate into an oversize pigeon carrier that you can store in your garage. Out of sight, out of the line of fire, so to speak.

I've made a couple of them. I can keep a half dozen pigeons or chuckar in the cage for a couple of weeks, or eight or so quail. Any longer and they might not fly so well.

I use the largest dog crate that still comes with a handle on top. I think it is a Medium size. I cut an opening in the back of the crate that is big enough to put my whole arm through to catch the birds and big enough to put a water bottle and feeder through it. I cut the opening on the top side of the crate and install a door made of Luan plywood that covers the opening and can rotate up and out of the way. One pivot point at the bottom of the door gets that done. The lip where the two halves of the crate join serves as the stop.

I also make a base of luan(or1/4" exterior) plywood that just fits inside the bottom of the crate. I put in 1 x 1" cleats every 8-10 inches with 1/2" hardware cloth stapledon top of the cleats. This allows the birds to poop and such without constantly walking in it and allow me to pop the base out and wash it out, much more easily and thoroughly than cleaning out the interior of the crate.

With reasonable care the carrier will last of r years.

RayG

[AverageGuy]

IDHunter,

I purchased and read Bob Farris book when it first came out. It's a good read. The discussion around Breeding and stories around some of his past dogs is the best part of it. I have found numerous sources for training advice I like better however.

The Drahthaar Puppy Manual is a far better book between those two IMO, as to how to raise and develop a Versatile breed puppy. Joan Bailey's book is a good one as well.

I also have Mo Lindley's Book which I find much better relative to the pointing and steadiness subjects than Farris's book. Lindley's approach is highly similar but importantly different in some ways to the Perfection Kennel approach. Lots of folks successfully follow Mo Lindley's approach. Willie Ts post in this thread is highly similar to it.

But books do not compete with DVDs for teaching us how to teach our dogs. Seeing is far better than just reading. A Clinic is even better than a DVD in some ways. The combination of both is wonderful.

The Perfection Kennel DVDs are filmed live while training dogs, so all the real problems and challenges that occur are there for you to see and learn from. Multiple dogs at various stages of training, temperaments and development are shown. Many small details that matter are discussed. If I knew of something better I would be using it and recommending it.

I have watched a bunch of Standing Stone videos. I do some similar work with my puppies as they commonly show. Some of their stuff I have specific reasons for why I do not follow it however which I touched on already.

I have two DVDs from George Hickox, interesting but I have not adopted any of his approaches in my training.

When it comes to Retrieving work I borrow from a lot of sources. I have DVDs from Perfection Kennel, Bill Hillmann, Evan Graham, Michael Ellis, Dennis Voigt and books predating all of that. I pick up and use something from each. I belong to two Retriever groups, train with them some, attend 2 or 3 hunt tests through the off season. I have much more to learn there.

I have specific early development work I do to ingrain a strong Hunt Dead command in my puppies which yields excellent downed bird recovery work that I came up with on my own.

My Track work draws heavily from John Jeanneney's book Tracking Dogs For Finding Wounded Deer and past experience with Hounds.

Over time studying multiple sources of information has been very beneficial but at this juncture I expect you are better served picking the best one to guide you through each detail, study and follow it.

Do not fail to enjoy the process of training and developing your dog as you go. Our puppies are adults way too soon.

[IDHunter]

AG,

I've got a couple of the resources that you list. The Joan Bailey book was actually one of the books I read that I liked the most and tried to implement. It made the most sense to me given my schedule and availability of training tools, plus it seemed more geared towards people who are newer to training. I've been very happy with how several things have progressed using her approach. However, I'm now overlaying more of the Perfection system to address the few issues I've noticed, including the one that prompted this post. I'll continue to dive into more resources and hopefully learn more techniques as we go. I'm sure this is something where you acquire knowledge slowly over the years, especially if you're like most people and can only have 1-2 dogs at a time. I look forward to continuing to learn about this as we go.

As for an update on my pup, I'm pleased to report that some of the very basic techniques recommended on this thread are appearing to yield results. We've been working a lot on whoa, and when hunting and he flushes birds I've been consistent about stopping his chase using the method you recommended (tone first, stim second...if needed). I've also been bringing him back to the location of the birds and putting him on whoa and making him hold it for a while before hunting on. This yielded two noticeable improvements on our hunt yesterday. While he did still chase some birds, there were other flushes where he didn't chase, or he only took a few steps and then stopped. You can tell he's slowly understanding what to do. We also had two very good finds and points on different covey's of huns. Both were points that were held a good amount of time. There were also a few coveys that he didn't point, but either way this is improvement. I'm feeling extremely optimistic about this progress given that we've only stepped up the training slightly so far, and I think when we really jump in after the season things will fall into place nicely.