Fox Drag

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Fox Drag

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 7:08 am

Hello All , I have a 2 year old DD I am testing in the VGP in October, he is doing very good in everything except the fox drag, he does the track and hides the fox or coon on his way back to me, he will not do the track over, he does the rabbit and duck drag perfect .
He is forced fetched.
Any advice how I can fix this problem would be greatly appreciated . Thank You Forrest
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby woodboro » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:26 am

50 meter drag ... on lead , once at fox command your fetch command , and heel him back.

* remember he can pass the test as long as he does fox in box.

Extend your drags , only in field, and do slow transition into woods,,, ie where he can hide it.

When he delivers , praise the hell out of him. Give him braunswiger meat after he accomplishes task ...

For the beginners - when force breaking a dog - intro a pup fox , and they will act like a big fox is just another object.
Prior to training the ult test - work with weights to strengthen the dogs neck---- if dog is compromised it is usually the weight.

keep us updated
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Duckdon » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:42 am

Have you tried with a coon? I had aa dog once that hated fox fur in his mouth but was fine with coon.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:04 pm

Yes I have the leather fox , it is up to 12 LBS, he loves it, yes I have tried the coon same outcome. keep the ideas coming please. Forrest
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby woodboro » Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:24 pm

dog does not need to carry 12 pounds.

Rules say a little over 7 pounds.

Judges don't crank out a scale ..

Training with 3-5 pounds is enough over time to create a strong neck.
I gave you your answer start small and insure correct carry next to you.
With lots of good boys ..
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:48 pm

Woodboro ,I know the rules are 7 LBS, but he is a little dog( 55 LBS) ,trying to build his strength for up coming goose season in Sept.
I will give it a try what you said do, he is a smart dog , he knows when I can't see him. Thank You Forrest
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:33 pm

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Woodboro ,I know the rules are 7 LBS, but he is a little dog( 55 LBS) ,trying to build his strength for up coming goose season in Sept.
I will give it a try what you said do, he is a smart dog , he knows when I can't see him. Thank You Forrest


I have not dealt with the problem but I wonder if you could hide a second handler in the woods downwind who is ready to say Fetch! and stimulate the dog if and when it drops the fox? Could use a tree stand to aid in the second handler's visibility perhaps? Or if the drag was long perhaps you could run forward as the dog runs down the drag and get in a ladder stand and do it yourself as you watch the dog returning?

Concept being similar to how a judge hides downwind and observes/judges in the NAVHDA UT drag to see if the dog mutilates or buries the game.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:44 pm

AG, that's is what I need , another person that can see him, I train alone and help is hard to come by. Forrest
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby woodboro » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:30 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
Drahthaar1108 wrote:Woodboro ,I know the rules are 7 LBS, but he is a little dog( 55 LBS) ,trying to build his strength for up coming goose season in Sept.
I will give it a try what you said do, he is a smart dog , he knows when I can't see him. Thank You Forrest


I have not dealt with the problem but I wonder if you could hide a second handler in the woods downwind who is ready to say Fetch! and stimulate the dog if and when it drops the fox? Could use a tree stand to aid in the second handler's visibility perhaps? Or if the drag was long perhaps you could run forward as the dog runs down the drag and get in a ladder stand and do it yourself as you watch the dog returning?

Concept being similar to how a judge hides downwind and observes/judges in the NAVHDA UT drag to see if the dog mutilates or buries the game.

----------------
So you climb a tree and watch the dog bury or eat game.. you already know its happening .
The idea is to train. You can't fix a 300 yard drag track , it is like force fetch on a table ... 1 step forward, one back , fix and go forward.
There is no easy 'quick' fix's on a reliable retrieve. (some people think dog is trained , and just fry his ass)
That is it with most weekend trainers , not enough time doing small steps , then test time comes and a quick fix , dog fails and dog is the excuse.
Draht1108 just be patient.
repetition repetition repetition and a boat load of congrad's on the dog. /
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Willie T » Fri Aug 02, 2019 3:35 am

Like Woodboro said, simplify. Less is more.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:42 am

Woodboro,

What I suggested was using a second handler who can make a timely correction when the dog drops the fox.

If the dog has been properly FF'd it will understand the correction. It is easy to type the word "Fry" but that is not how I use an ecollar and hopefully not how Forrest does either. Timely, well understood corrections have their place in training and they should be done at the lowest level which get the desired result. Not nagging but not "Frying" either.

Forrest posted the dog does duck and rabbit drags as it should which indicates the dog understands what it is being asked to do.

Simplifying is fine but the exercise is out of sight of the Handler who sent the dog so a training solution to the problem at hand must at some point deal with that key condition and my suggestion deals with that reality vs dodging it.

Forrest,

If you lay a drag in visible cover from start to end using the Fox, will the dog run and retrieve the fox as desired?

If not then the dog is not ready for out of sight work but I suspect you know that and the dog will run drags with the Fox that are visible to the handler or you would not be training on out of sight drags. Please clarify and then we all have necessary information to the situation.

If the dog will run a visible drag successfully with the Fox the problem would seem to be isolated to the dog does not like carrying the fox. You indicated it will run and carry similar weight training items so weight does not seem to be the issue if that is the case. Which further isolates the problem to the dog does not like carrying the fox and thinks it is free to do as it chooses when you are not around to correct it.

It would be helpful to the advisors if you can clarify the details I post here and perhaps we can avoid some of the pissing contest that too often bleed into online dog training discussions particularly when someone is carrying something in their craw from another thread.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Willie T » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:40 am

Two different approaches AG. Yes the dog is going to have to work out of the handlers sight on the fox drag. It is not yet ready and things are breaking down. Simplify and firm up the handling of the fox and all should be well. In all honesty if the dog has been force fetched, I would first isolate only handling the fox. I would heeel the dog 1/4 mile or better/day carrying the fox for a couple weeks and come to an understanding about when to spit it. After that is done, but not before, I would go back to the drags after adequate preparation.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:11 pm

Willie T,

the challenge of dog training on the internet is getting adequate information which is what I attempted in my Post just above yours.

I know Forest is an experienced handler and I understood his posts such that the situation is the dog will do the work while in his sight but not while working out of sight of its handler. I am guilty of the assumption that he has worked the dog in picking up, carrying and retrieving a fox before attempting to run the dog on a fox drag out of sight. If that assumption is incorrect then I posted the dog is not ready for it.

If the foundation has been laid for the work and yet the dog is behaving differently when the handler is not in sight then something along the lines of what I suggested is a good one. If the foundation is not in place then you laid out a good one.

I trained a German Shepard on OB when I was a young kid. When advancing the dog on its Sit Stay command I got to the point where the dog would stay long enough for me to get out of sight. Then we advanced to where I could get inside the house with a window opened. It was an extremely powerful point in our training when that dog heard me issue a NO command when it could not see me.

Which is similar to this situation and why I suggested it. I agree the Foundation for it to work must be in place however.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby Willie T » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:00 pm

AG, yes internet training is a crap shoot and why I often hesitate to make suggestions.

The one constant in my training is my first action when things start to come off the rails is to try to simplify by breaking things down to isolate what exactly where the weak link is and strengthen it. In the case of a track and retrieve I would try to leave off the track till I got squared away and thus eliminate the possibility of the dog blinking the track as a result of the training.
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Re: Fox Drag

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:11 pm

Yes, backing up to make sure things are understood and in place is a standard of dog training.

I assumed the dog would run a drag track laid with a fox and retrieve it all the way back to the handler when the track and work from start to finish is visible to the handler. I understood the breakdown was narrow and specific to the introduction of working out of sight of the handler with the Fox, and key to that is the dog is already doing out of sight drags successfully with ducks and rabbits. That is my understanding of where this dog is currently.

In which case a training approach which specifically addresses the dog working out of sight with a fox is needed.

If the dog will not run the track and retrieve the fox while visible to the handler then backing up even further is needed.
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