FF During Season????

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:27 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Thanks ANick. With a little cheese and in only eight minutes, the dog in the video is now reaching for the dummy. Would someone please tell Evan Graham that the power of PR is profound?


Bruce, take a look at my post under NAVDHA just now.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2138
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:42 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Thanks ANick. With a little cheese and in only eight minutes, the dog in the video is now reaching for the dummy. Would someone please tell Evan Graham that the power of PR is profound?


The way she was doing it, result would have been same without the cheese. You do realize pressure was being applied to that dog? That's why the jaws we're opening. You're too hung up on PR. PR has its place as does pressure and its when the two are combined that the greatest results are achieved.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:30 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The way she was doing it, result would have been same without the cheese.

You're right. But remember, timewise, in Evan's dog Star's case it took exactly eight weeks. The German lady did it in eight minutes.

GONEHUNTIN' wrote: You're too hung up on PR. PR has its place as does pressure and its when the two are combined that the greatest results are achieved.


Agreed, on both counts
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:45 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The way she was doing it, result would have been same without the cheese.

You're right. But remember, timewise, in Evan's dog Star's case it took exactly eight weeks. The German lady did it in eight minutes.

GONEHUNTIN' wrote: You're too hung up on PR. PR has its place as does pressure and its when the two are combined that the greatest results are achieved.


Agreed, on both counts


And realize Star was the exception to the rule, it is precisely why he highlighted her. You seem to want to avoid acknowledging that.

GH, not everybody ignores jowl pinch these days. I'll expand later but just wanted to let you know it's not a completely lost step in FF. My young female has been jowl pinched, it was simple and she won't drop anyrhing.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2375
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: FF During Season????

Postby Willie T » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:47 am

Bruce. The German lady was doing a nice job of teaching. FF is what you do with what the nice German lady showed us how to teach, if you want it bullet proof. In other words, apples and oranges. Might or might not be useful enough to you to pursue.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:06 am

Bruce, fixed it for you:

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Thanks ANick. With a little cheese and in only eight minutes, the dog in the video is now reaching for the dummy. Would someone please tell Evan Graham that the power of the very best limburger is profound?


Also, WillieT is spot-on:
Willie T wrote:Bruce. The German lady was doing a nice job of teaching. FF is what you do with what the nice German lady showed us how to teach, if you want it bullet proof. In other words, apples and oranges. Might or might not be useful enough to you to pursue.


I would also interject that a few years ago, largely sans PR but not FF and the e-collar, a German Herr handling a Chessie(!) won the European Retriever Championships - training the dog with "our" (retrieverite) methods. Imagine that!

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:47 am

Actually, not apples and oranges in the least. What the German lady taught us was that rewards are a more powerful motivator in learning than using force. That's the lesson. Think about it the next time you put a dog on the table to begin FF training. No one is arguing whether force is useful in proofing what's been learned.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1201
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:40 am

Lacking a ton of context there, Bruce. Let's see you put that ball of limburger about 350 yards out in the water and "ask" (PR "May I?") a dog to swim a blind to get its "reward." Now unless there's a Force V headwind giving away the location - actually with limburger it might only need to be a Force .05 headwind to give it away - all the asking in the world ain't going to get the dog there. You have conveniently forgotten in propounding this "argument" that force fetch has very little to do with retrieving (for retrievers) and everything to do with handling and biddability (cooperation) found in a finished retriever. Or...in a finished retrieving gundog, which ain't finished unless it runs/swims cold water blinds by being handled on them.

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Actually, not apples and oranges in the least. What the German lady taught us was that rewards are a more powerful motivator in learning than using force. That's the lesson. Think about it the next time you put a dog on the table to begin FF training. No one is arguing whether force is useful in proofing what's been learned.


MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby Willie T » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:22 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Actually, not apples and oranges in the least. What the German lady taught us was that rewards are a more powerful motivator in learning than using force. That's the lesson. Think about it the next time you put a dog on the table to begin FF training. No one is arguing whether force is useful in proofing what's been learned.


I guess the way we understand implementing force fetch is vastly different then. I want what the German lady showed us, taught and in place, plus a whole lot more, before I consider starting with any force fetch. I truly believe that misunderstanding is what gets a lot of dogs and their handler wrapped around the axle and turns force fetch into an ordeal that is hard on both the handler and the dog.
Willie
Willie T
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 343
Joined: Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:26 am

Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Mon Dec 17, 2018 12:57 pm

GH, how I was shown to use the jowl pinch was basically during the teaching process of hold after the dog starts to get it but might start dropping the object every now and then. They quickly start to understand pressure and turning it off. And it's probably why the dogs I've seen FFd this way don't usually need to be ear pinched more than twice, maybe 3 times for some.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2375
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: FF During Season????

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:09 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:Another good post GH. I ride the early development of natural retrieve we do through the first hunting season and then polish things up with a form of FF when it closes and before the second season. The approach has never failed so far, nor has it ever been too difficult. Working with the right genetics has played a big role in that I expect.

ANick, kudos for thinking out of the box. I experiment a bit myself and have found benefit in it.


I cringe on these boards when guys say they're adopting a half boxes half poodle and how do they train it. Can they train it? Yes. But as you say AG, genetics are everything. A dog isn't bred for performance and ability only, but for intelligence and tractability as well. Tractability is so important; unless you enjoy coming home from work and beating a dog daily. Training a dog is supposed to be fun and rewarding. Iv'e watched you with yours and I can see it is for you. Take the mutts and poison all of them with a dose of lead; I want nothing to do with any of them. I've served my time in hell.

Hehe...Reminds me of how frustrated I get when I call an applicant for a foster dog and they turn it into an interview that I would expect if I were selling a started dog. I tell them if that's what they're looking for, that's what they should buy and prepare to pay for.
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The only guys that have trouble with FF are the ones that skip steps or apply pressure that is misunderstood. Nobody talks about the jowl pinch and really, that IS the key in FF. It is the key transition between hold and ear pinch. If the jowl pinch is correctly done, the dog flies through the ear pinch in a very short time. Probably a week or so.

FF is a shortcut that gives the additional benefit of leaving an added tool in your chest to correct a future problem should it arise. It's one thing when you start a four month pup with PR; it's another when you begin with a ten month old or year or more old dog. Not so easy and not so cooperative. I'll also say there is NO dog as miserable, stubborn, and tough to train as a German dog if they decide not to cooperate.
That's easy for a retired pro to say. You've gone through it with how many dogs? And is it fair to assume that at various points in the process, you had other trainers to troubleshoot with? I only say that because understanding the dog's reaction and how to react to it when it isn't in the book you're reading is frustrating. It isn't difficult in the sense of requiring lots of skills, its difficult recognizing an "alternative behavior presentation" and knowing how to handle it. Is it the dog shutting down? Is it avoidance? Is it a confused dog? And, as an amateur, trying to balance not letting the dog win and ending on a high note with not losing your won temper or getting frustrated. Fortunately most German dogs are forgiving of the "Bigger Hammers" solution for round pegs and square holes.
JONOV
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 545
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:20 pm

JONOV wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:Another good post GH. I ride the early development of natural retrieve we do through the first hunting season and then polish things up with a form of FF when it closes and before the second season. The approach has never failed so far, nor has it ever been too difficult. Working with the right genetics has played a big role in that I expect.

ANick, kudos for thinking out of the box. I experiment a bit myself and have found benefit in it.


I cringe on these boards when guys say they're adopting a half boxes half poodle and how do they train it. Can they train it? Yes. But as you say AG, genetics are everything. A dog isn't bred for performance and ability only, but for intelligence and tractability as well. Tractability is so important; unless you enjoy coming home from work and beating a dog daily. Training a dog is supposed to be fun and rewarding. Iv'e watched you with yours and I can see it is for you. Take the mutts and poison all of them with a dose of lead; I want nothing to do with any of them. I've served my time in hell.

Hehe...Reminds me of how frustrated I get when I call an applicant for a foster dog and they turn it into an interview that I would expect if I were selling a started dog. I tell them if that's what they're looking for, that's what they should buy and prepare to pay for.
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The only guys that have trouble with FF are the ones that skip steps or apply pressure that is misunderstood. Nobody talks about the jowl pinch and really, that IS the key in FF. It is the key transition between hold and ear pinch. If the jowl pinch is correctly done, the dog flies through the ear pinch in a very short time. Probably a week or so.

FF is a shortcut that gives the additional benefit of leaving an added tool in your chest to correct a future problem should it arise. It's one thing when you start a four month pup with PR; it's another when you begin with a ten month old or year or more old dog. Not so easy and not so cooperative. I'll also say there is NO dog as miserable, stubborn, and tough to train as a German dog if they decide not to cooperate.


That's easy for a retired pro to say. You've gone through it with how many dogs? And is it fair to assume that at various points in the process, you had other trainers to troubleshoot with? I only say that because understanding the dog's reaction and how to react to it when it isn't in the book you're reading is frustrating. It isn't difficult in the sense of requiring lots of skills, its difficult recognizing an "alternative behavior presentation" and knowing how to handle it. Is it the dog shutting down? Is it avoidance? Is it a confused dog? And, as an amateur, trying to balance not letting the dog win and ending on a high note with not losing your won temper or getting frustrated. Fortunately most German dogs are forgiving of the "Bigger Hammers" solution for round pegs and square holes.


JONOV, what guidance are you using? Been noted here often that a very good "Paint (FF) by Numbers" procedural for getting you into and through force fetch, with every step (or misstep) explicated is "the Orange Book" by the American Hunting Dog Club http://www.ahdc.org/ahdcsite/training.php

Not so sure about the German dogs being forgiving, either, but I would ask GH, not as a retired pro, but as a Draht owner, for his take on it.

MG
User avatar
crackerd
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 724
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:10 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:22 pm

ryanr wrote:GH, how I was shown to use the jowl pinch was basically during the teaching process of hold after the dog starts to get it but might start dropping the object every now and then. They quickly start to understand pressure and turning it off. And it's probably why the dogs I've seen FFd this way don't usually need to be ear pinched more than twice, maybe 3 times for some.


Exactly right. How
Many guys on this board and others do you see that have never heard of jowl pinch? Or, how many promote going right to collar from hold? I think the jowl will pinch is one of
The most overlooked parts of ff.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Dec 17, 2018 4:29 pm

JONOV wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:Another good post GH. I ride the early development of natural retrieve we do through the first hunting season and then polish things up with a form of FF when it closes and before the second season. The approach has never failed so far, nor has it ever been too difficult. Working with the right genetics has played a big role in that I expect.

ANick, kudos for thinking out of the box. I experiment a bit myself and have found benefit in it.


I cringe on these boards when guys say they're adopting a half boxes half poodle and how do they train it. Can they train it? Yes. But as you say AG, genetics are everything. A dog isn't bred for performance and ability only, but for intelligence and tractability as well. Tractability is so important; unless you enjoy coming home from work and beating a dog daily. Training a dog is supposed to be fun and rewarding. Iv'e watched you with yours and I can see it is for you. Take the mutts and poison all of them with a dose of lead; I want nothing to do with any of them. I've served my time in hell.

Hehe...Reminds me of how frustrated I get when I call an applicant for a foster dog and they turn it into an interview that I would expect if I were selling a started dog. I tell them if that's what they're looking for, that's what they should buy and prepare to pay for.
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The only guys that have trouble with FF are the ones that skip steps or apply pressure that is misunderstood. Nobody talks about the jowl pinch and really, that IS the key in FF. It is the key transition between hold and ear pinch. If the jowl pinch is correctly done, the dog flies through the ear pinch in a very short time. Probably a week or so.

FF is a shortcut that gives the additional benefit of leaving an added tool in your chest to correct a future problem should it arise. It's one thing when you start a four month pup with PR; it's another when you begin with a ten month old or year or more old dog. Not so easy and not so cooperative. I'll also say there is NO dog as miserable, stubborn, and tough to train as a German dog if they decide not to cooperate.
That's easy for a retired pro to say. You've gone through it with how many dogs? And is it fair to assume that at various points in the process, you had other trainers to troubleshoot with? I only say that because understanding the dog's reaction and how to react to it when it isn't in the book you're reading is frustrating. It isn't difficult in the sense of requiring lots of skills, its difficult recognizing an "alternative behavior presentation" and knowing how to handle it. Is it the dog shutting down? Is it avoidance? Is it a confused dog? And, as an amateur, trying to balance not letting the dog win and ending on a high note with not losing your won temper or getting frustrated. Fortunately most German dogs are forgiving of the "Bigger Hammers" solution for round pegs and square holes.

:morning:
Yes, you're right of course. I've ff'd several hundred dogs and they weren't all well bred. Still, it's my belief that short cuts and skipping steps gets trainers into more trouble than anything else. ain't no shortcuts. Then too, very few people are cut out to be great dog trainers.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
User avatar
GONEHUNTIN'
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 9:39 pm

Re: FF During Season????

Postby Drahthaar1108 » Mon Dec 17, 2018 7:11 pm

Not familiar with Jowl Pinch, anyone care to elaborate ? Forrest
Drahthaar1108
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:44 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests

cron