range for chukar dog

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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Feb 26, 2020 7:47 am

Drahthaar1108 wrote:Most all our side roads are dirt, all of our field paths are dirt, the side roads that have rock are to short and go to hard surface and to big of a risk. Forrest


Seems the best you can do is get your dog in shape and prepared to wear boots.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Feb 29, 2020 3:16 pm

Ryan,
Quite amazing insight on dogs and cliffs. You tell us not to worry about it, then describe your dog going over a snow covered bolder after a rabbit, guess its a good thing wee don't have snow covered boulders or rabbits in chukar country!!

Had a friend who's GSP jumped down 20 feet off a rock and broke its leg. Another GSP in a moment of excitement jumped over the railing on a dam and landed dead 200 feet down.

Yes, very wise insight to tell folks not top worry about cliffs.

But thats right you don't read my posts???
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sat Feb 29, 2020 4:02 pm

Image

Image

I had one of my dogs go over a ledge last year and she got stuck about ten feet below the top. Hundreds of feet below straight down below that. I had to go back to my truck and get a tow rope and tie off on a juniper tree and snake my way to the dog to secure her and get us both back up. It happened pretty much in the same place as the deepest canyons in my original images. I was by myself and luckily it all worked out OK. I was a fool for shooting a chukar too close to the edge.

But, you don’t have to be hunting the canyons of eastern Oregon to have problems. In October 2017 I was hunting with another companion in northeastern Montana and he was in a BLM field a mile or so away from the mile square field I was hunting. I was with Gypsy (pictured). A lone cow a long ways off started to work towards me and then started charging a hundred yards or so away. I shot one barrel of my 12 ga. over its head thinking it would stop but it kept coming and so I put the second shot at point blank range into its head. She hit me, knocked me down and pushed me about 30 feet or so, and when I staggered to my senses it was standing there looking at me. I watched it intently but when it started for me again I quickly grabbed two more shells in my vest and ran back to my gun back (where I was first mauled) and reloaded just in time to put two more shells into its head. It died literally at my feet.

So, I spent the night in a hospital and had multiple CT scans showing a closed head injury, neck injury and a couple broken ribs. Fortunately I’ve pretty much recovered but had unpleasant balance issues for a year or so.

The moral of the story is to stay away from range cows. I had figured we incurred greater risk just driving to where we hunt rather than once we get there but I’m rethinking it all.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Mar 01, 2020 9:21 am

Yea, its not a Walt Disney World out there. Glad you are still in one piece Bruce.

Dog swimming in circles hung up in a Limb Line in dense flooded timber me swimming out to get him loose, Head to Head Baying a wounded buck with 14 inch tines lowered trying to run him through, Dog running over a piece of old rusty tin thrown over an abandoned cistern neither of us knew was there, two dogs with gouged eyes in the brush, Dog washed away through a hole in a levee into a raging flooded river on the back side as he pursued a crippled greenhead me nearly drowning trying to save him, Mother Otter coming on a run to kill my puppy, dog with a sliced artery in its lower leg being rushed to the ER, sticks up the nose of two dogs so far, two dogs running through barb wire fences on a dead run both times, ...

Safety is assured in nothing we do.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby KJ » Sun Mar 01, 2020 10:43 am

Crazy story on the cow, Bruce.

I did have one young dog jump off a cliff about 5 years ago. I could see her working down to the cliff edge above and she appeared committed. She got to the edge, took a look, and just went for it. It was about 20-25 feet and the landing spot was a very steep boulder field. When she hit, she did head-over-a$$ rolls for 30 yards down the hill on a 45 degree incline. It was ugly. At the end she stood up and just stood there. I was amazed that she could stand. She didn't yelp or appear in pain. I checked over her body expecting to find a limb hanging. Nothing. I called her to walk to see if she was limping. Nothing. So I released her and she takes off around the next corner and points a covey of chukars. She hunted the rest of the day, and was completely fine. Weird deal.

I have heard several stories of chukar dogs going over cliffs chasing a bird. I have seen veteran dogs in very scary situations, only because they aren't tall enough to see the situation below them.

Most areas I hunt don't have big drop-off cliffs, so I usually don't worry about it. Some areas are certainly worse than others, just depends on the geology of the area. I would probably avoid hunting a young dog right above a cliff area, but it's not something I would planning or not planning my trip around.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 12:49 am

Bruce,

"Steak, its what's for dinner". Never personally gave a thought about range cows. But, being a firefighter and seeing lots of things go wrong, its now in my be careful category!
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Mar 02, 2020 1:14 am

Bruce,

As far as your "Perfect" chukar dog, two things come to mind. One, how does the whistling work in the field? is it reliable, is it reliable at distance? Two, the dog is ugly, far from perfect.

But with that being said. I can't believe you are not getting more comments or recognition for what you have accomplished. If the dog is reliable at distance, then this dog would be the most valuable dog a chukar hunter could have.

A very long time ago , some guy in Scotland or Ireland or one of the lands had an idea that he could improve a sheepdogs ability to help move his sheep at a tremendous distance with whistle commands. Im not sure how he was received? Perhaps he was received as a genius from the get go, or perhaps it took time?
Then, the retriever guys applied the whistle concept to ret.

Personally I think you are on the cutting edge of a whole new way of handling. I don't believe traditional ret handling can be eliminated, but I think you have something of great value. I believe I have said it before, but you are the only one one this forum that has contributed something new and perhaps revolutionary.

Im afraid that your idea may fail to gain acceptance because you can't afford to repeat the results enough to get it to catch on?

But if your dog can perform those commands consistently at distance, it would surely be the most valuable chukar dog any of us have ever hunted with.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:44 am

Kiger: The idea of steering dogs evolved in my brain while watching a cowboy friend steer his sheepdogs (like the English dog trainers who went to Scotland back in the 40's). I thought one of my dogs was picking up the idea and it dawned on me that it could be useful in handling hunting dogs. I thought, "Wow, wouldn't it be cool to steer my dog on a water blind without having it have to stop and turn and tread water to get directions"? And on a long blind the dog could be given correctional changes and be put downwind of the fall in mere seconds? Cool!

Dogs could be sorted out at licensed trials on how well they followed simple whistles of different pitches rather than by ever increasing distances. What's there to not like about that? Well, it hasn't gotten much traction in the retriever world but it's out there (and it works) so I'm cool with it. Labrador retrievers are the perfect dog to train for this as they are driven to please and can be relied on to follow instructions - not so the ugly breeds. LOL. My current PP pup hunts, points, and retrieves nicely to hand nicely but has no interest in dummy work so he's not going to be any steering champion.

For my older dog I use the method in duck hunting mostly for handling on blind retrieves. I often hunt a place that I can't get to where some birds fall so I have to handle a lot. If my dog paid more attention to my wishes it would be perfect, but, again, dogs have limitations. I try to balance the control vs. independent hunting thing as I never know how much pressure I can apply. If I want to send the dog to hunt another area while chukar hunting I use a whistle to get the dog's attention and then a hand signal. Wind is often an issue while hunting chukar and the dogs are usually up wind so it's tough. I've thought about having the beep on the GPS tell the dog to look at me and then I could give it a hand signal for a directional change, but mostly I just let the dogs do whatever they want. They seem to enjoy that more than being controlled all the time.

Thanks for your kind words!

Image

I took the dogs out for a big run yesterday and to check on what the birds are up to. I found no coveys but came across four separate pairs. I had hunted the last day of the season (January 31) and found a couple of pretty large coveys (one with about 50 birds), so in a month's time I guess they've split up. Here's a nice view from on top.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Highlander » Mon Mar 02, 2020 10:35 pm

orhunter wrote:It's bad because the dog isn't using its nose effectively and not covering ground effectively. A dog should locate birds a couple hundred yards away, it shouldn't have to stumble upon them like a lot of flushers. The dog should be working pretty much perpendicular to the wind. Your picture shows walking directly into the wind and sometimes we have to do it but its not ideal. Don't train a dog to what the picture shows, it'll figure out what works best without your intervention. With a large tight S pattern like in the picture, the dog is working wind it already worked. When the dog hits scent, it may do a short S search to locate the center of the scent stream. As the dog works closer, at some point the dog will acquire enough scent to fire the point instinct. A dog should not be trained to point and hold first scent. Dog needs to learn to work scent on its own so the shooter has a good idea where the birds will be for the flush. A dog that points and holds first scent doesn't tell the shoot if the birds are 10 yards out or 200 yards.

One thing I'll do to slow a dog down if they start getting a little wild like young dogs do, is walk with the wind at my back. Dog should run to the front and turn to the side and work into the wind. It should alternate sides, making a series of upside down J movements. When the dog points, simple move over in front of the dog till the wind is blowing directly from you to the dog. That puts the bird directly between the two of you. This is how I hunt pheasants with a cranked up pup. Dogs hate doing this as it goes against their natural instinct to work the wind efficiently.


Thanks for the detailed explanation.
Do you think creeping could be useful?
In the situation where dog has smelled a bird and has gone on point. He is waiting for your dispatch... and then both of you are advancing to the bird fallowing the smell.
I have seen situations like this, but not in the environment like Mr. Schwartz’s photos.

I think creeping means when the dog is holding the bird but still trying to figure out actually source of the smell cone.


Mr. Schwartz, I am glad that you are doing ok. That’s story seemed surreal to me.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby orhunter » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:31 am

Creeping is when a dog moves when it should be steady. In extreme cases it results in a flushed bird when the dog is in motion which needs to be dealt with. Do not confuse relocating with creeping they are not the same. There are two kinds of relocating. One is when the dog has a strong point instinct and locks up when it hits scent. Dog soon realizes the bird(s) is farther away than it should be so dog moves in to a proper pointing distance. The second is when bird(s) are moving away from the dog and scent begins getting weaker. Dog realizes this and moves ahead to get stronger scent. This may happen several times. Don't blame the dog if birds simply won't hold unless dog really is too close. Jumpy birds may teach a dog to hold off up to 70 yards. Some birds are truly not huntable.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:01 pm

Highlander,
Actually Orhunter is a bit wrong on the quartering thing.

There are times when a tight quarter pattern like that is needed. Thick cover where the scent doesnt spread well is just one. Flushers don't just bump into birds any more than pointers do. If you carefully read what he says, as the dog is working back and forth its covering wind its already worked, well , if thats the case as it works down the field, it won't be bumping birds because it won't bite off TOO MUCH wind. While Orhunter expects the dog to smell birds 200 yards off, hes not allowing for the myriad of things that just don't allow that. A single chukar will be harder to detect than 150. Temp, humidity etc.. are things that impact scent and us humans really have no idea really what a dog can smell.

Lets look at averageguys original photo.We already determined that the dog will miss or bump birds downwind its line. Only this time imagine the wind is in our face. As move towards the objective, we need to dog to run a quartering pattern . If a bird is 100 yards out and 100 yards to the right and the scenting conditions only allow the dog to smell the bird at 50 yards, if the dog goes to the right pass the bird, then heads up field 150 yards and cuts back to the left he will pass behind the scent of the bird.

So , you can see some type of quartering is needed. It may not look exactly like your photo. The other thing is, you will miss birds. Its just not possible for the dog to get all of them. I sold a Golden pup to a guy that had a pointer . Told me he takes the Golden to pick up the birds the pointer missed. His words not mine.

So its important to be able to manage the hunt. We want the dog hunt, but we also need to remember. he aint as smart as we are and we can improve our success by helping the dog use its nose to our best advantage.

Also a dog that stops ate first scent doesnt tell us whether the bird is at 10 yards or 200, but if the birds at 10 yards he better stay put.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby jlw034 » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:47 pm

Kiger2 wrote:
Also a dog that stops ate first scent doesnt tell us whether the bird is at 10 yards or 200, but if the birds at 10 yards he better stay put.


Crossing a scent cone from a bird 10 yards away produces a very different point than a bird 50 yards away...at least for me.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby orhunter » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:19 am

JLW... For sure. Get some pretty odd looking points when the dog runs past the birds before hitting scent. Amazing how fast a dog can stop when on a dead run.
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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:10 pm

Spud pointing the first Hun he ever smelled. Ran by it with the wind at his back, knew he was on top of it and so his pointing stance looked like this. Stopped and froze in the blink of an eye.

Image

Here he was yesterday after a several hundred yards point and relocate pursuit of a wild survivor running pheasant. The farther the birds are out the higher his nose goes.

Image

He was working a cross wind the whole time, turning into it when the bird stopped and working the crosswind to keep track of the bird when it ran, while not pressuring the bird into flight. I posted video of it on my FB page last night and a NAVHDA Senior Judge said it was "an outstanding piece of dog work", and then invited us up to hunt with him next season. Said he wanted to see my dog hunt in person.

The cover was big and open grasslands with brushy cover along the edges. Would have taken maybe 10x as long to cover it with a close ranging quartering dog as it took us, me watching and enjoying the show all the while.

Image

Highlander,

Go watch some FT Pointing dogs work. You will not see quartering ground patterns.

I have hunted wild bobwhites with 2 pro strings of EPs recently. One Breeder/Handler/Trainer/Hunter had a dog which came in runner-up in the National Championship at Ames in Feb 2017. A third Pro Breeder/Handler put down his National Champion Cover Dog ES and I hunted over the dog. So some high caliber dogs and superior bird finders.

None of their dogs ran quartering ground patterns.

What we have in this thread is a Retriever guy telling all the pointing guys they are doing it wrong. Says we need dogs to stay close, quarter, give them hand signals controlling where the dogs go to search.

Were the same subject tee'd up on some FB groups, the camp of Western hunters who let their Chukar dogs roll big would overwhelm those advocating for keeping their dogs close. I saw a post earlier today of a guy's beautiful GSP. Said the dog had logged close to 600 days of hunting wild chukars in its career. I asked him how far the dog ranged, his answer was "Big Gundog" range. His dogs go out over 1000 yards at times.

Yesterday before my dog got on to the running pheasant, I worked him on a water blind retrieve which consisted of a 100 yard water crossing and simple 90 degree cast where he then found the Dolken and crossed the water back to me. It was the first we had run since the ice came off the ponds and it went off without a hitch.

It is not that I cannot direct my pointing dog's search pattern but rather I know how utterly unproductive it is to do so versus letting a very experienced and effective dog do what he knows to do better than I.

An illustrative story fits with this photo below. My dog is 10 months old with a limit of wild Iowa roosters, shot over separate points using 3 shells. I whiffed on the covey of bobwhites he pointed in the timber on that hunt or there would have been some quail in the photo too. Later in the same day he recovered a crippled rooster for the Friend I was hunting with that day. My Friend had permission on the private land we were hunting and he had his DD along in its second season. He proudly showed me how he had trained his dog to work to a whistle and hand signals directing the dog around the field.

I did not think much of that approach but when someone is kind enough to share a great permission spot with me, I keep unsolicited dog handling advice to myself. When we got the chance my pup and I split off and that was when we went to work on the roosters. My Friend and his dog got nothing hunting the other side of the same farm. The difference was not the dogs but rather the approach of the handlers. I was silent and let my pup hunt.

Some people trust their dogs and some don't.

If I am crossing a big expanse unlikely to hold any birds I am not above heeling my dog and then releasing him as we approach likely cover on the other side, so my dog does not arrive way ahead of me and have to hold birds all the longer. But this notion of blowing whistles, waving arms and handling well trained pointing dogs as one would handle them on a blind retrieve is as ridiculous as it is unproductive.

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Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:33 pm

AverageGuy wrote:But this notion of blowing whistles, waving arms and handling well trained pointing dogs as one would handle them on a blind retrieve is as ridiculous as it is unproductive.


Well, first off, most pointing dogs aren't well trained. And frankly, there's not much training needed . The difference between training a retriever and a pointing dog is pretty huge: FF, whoa, and that's about it for the pointing breed. I have a nice young pointing breed dog who does that but, since he'll never be more than that, we're done. At nine months he's still pretty crazy but found and pointed birds that I shot and retrieved them to hand. Not my idea of the best trained dog but it's been pretty easy. We take walks, and that's about it.

I also have a dog that has hunted years on upland birds and waterfowl and is highly trained to hunt independently, takes hand signals to hunt areas I want hunted rather than what she wants hunted, lines, handles and retrieves to hand. Plus she sits quietly in the duck blind, marks well enough to let me stay dry, handles to unseen falls, and hunts independently for cripples. There's a gulf of difference in the training needed for the second dog.

Chukar hunting is pure fun for the dog - big country, hunt to their hearts content, and they get a great workout. This past weekend I watched my dogs at 400 yards on GPS and they were hardly visible, not to mention lost on GPS some of the time. 1000 yards is pushing 3/4 mile! Is there really increasing rewards for that increased distance? I'd venture that they're missing a lot of ground in that big search.

BTW, great shots of you and Spud!
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