range for chukar dog

General Sporting Dog Discussion

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby orhunter » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:35 am

Had a Peregrine take a winged Chukar once. I'd been watching it watching us for a while. Wanted to see something cool happen. Dog pointed a covey and killed two outright but had a runner on the third shot. We collected the dead birds and I put Ellie on the track of the third. The track just ended, spot of blood on the ground. Missed the whole thing. Happened pretty quickly as the Chukar hadn't gone very far, maybe a hundred feet.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby KJ » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:55 am

Range is not the most important ingredient to a great chukar dog, but without it you will be handicapped in certain situations - such as hunting big, open tops or during poor bird years where they are really spread out.

I think the ideal chukar dog hunts at 200-500 yards most of the time, depending on conditions. I hunt some areas where I will let them go much further than that. I typically hunt with a beeper, but when I have thrown a friend's Garmin on a few times, I was surprised how quickly they hit 600-800 yards when they were out of sight. A couple of my dogs are not above taking 1,000-1,500 yard casts, but this is in the big, open stuff where I can see them a long ways, and when we aren't seeing many birds. We are still very successful on birds pointed this far away because the dogs point them a long ways off and don't pressure them. When hunting the steep, nasty faces I like to keep them closer, more like 75-200 yards. Late in the season when hunting high pressure areas where birds are very wild, I keep them from going around the next ridge in front of me,which usually means under 200 yards. In these conditions birds start flying as soon as you peak around in the next draw.

Most people get soured on a wide ranging dog because the dog lacked the skill set that is required to be successful when hunting this far out. Nose is very important. Nobody will argue that, however, some have never really seen great nose to know the difference. Most people think you lying when you tell that that the really good chukar dogs can smell chukars coveys a few hundred yards away and routinely point them at 100+ yards. Scenting conditions don't allow the dogs to point them this far away earlier in the season, but the birds hold better then anyways, so it works. As the season goes on and we get some cooler temps and moisture, the dogs can smell coveys a long ways away using the thermals working up the canyons. Later season if your dogs aren't pointing them 100 yards away, you won't have much of a chance in getting on them - unless, of course, your dog is working close to you. I have seen a ton of dogs that point everything at 30 yards away and while this may work in early season or on broken up singles later on, you won't be able to get to these birds in time if the dog is several hundred yards away. Sometimes this is due to nose, and sometimes the dog lacks bird handling skills and has to try to get closer. Neither works, which is why people want their dogs to work close enough where they can get to them quickly.

Another big difference is that some dogs just want to find birds more, and some just go through the motions. Most dogs just go through the motions and because they are out there a couple hundred yards, the owner thinks the dog is hunting hard. Dogs that have to come all the way back (yo-yo) to you (instead of acknowledge you from 100+ yards away and heading back out) aren't grinding. What does your dog after 2 hours of no bird contact? Many dogs will start to lose interest and work closer. These dogs are just going through the motions. The real grinders will be pushing out into the next county to find birds if they have't found anything for that long.

Just my observations.
User avatar
KJ
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:54 pm
Location: Baker City, OR

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:08 pm

KRM,
Thank you for this post!

To answer your question, have you been lied to your whole life? Yes!!!!

When I joined here I took a lot of grief for my belief that a big running dog was not required to hunt chukars. Even after presenting years of data. As you can see from your experience and the replies of others here, it just is not true. They have finally come around.

Success is based on 3 things. Taking the dog to where the birds are. If you hunt a ridge with no birds, it don't matter how much ground is covered. 2. How the birds react. 3. luck!

Big runners may help more open level ground, but my experience it makes no difference during years with poor numbers. In those years everyones average goes down, those with flushers and those with pointers. I continued to have equal or better success with men ret as the pointer guys I hunt with.

Now there is a caveat to that. The last few years my pointer friends have started to do better than me. Hunting the same historical places and pretty much all the variables being the same except, my age. Im not covering as much ground as they are. Its not that my dog is not covering as much ground as their dogs, it's that they themselves are younger and covering more ground than me. They are putting about 1.5 or more miles a day than I am on average.

Bruce pretty sure a drone would be illegal. Don't think a balloon would be as long as you didn't release it. Probably 25 years a go I watch some folks with a falcon work a draw with a pointer. I had a good seat but I had already taken two roosters out of it and cleared the birds so they didn't find anything. We had as good conversation and as I recall they said if the chukars see them holding the bird, they would flush, but if the bird was airborne the birds would hold. Ive thought since then about taking a balloon and tying it to my pack to test it. I really should try it next year.

I also don't take much faith in the "late season" chukars not holding as well. Ive had some of my best days at the very end of the season and for me its more of a day to day issue. Some days they are just flighty. Its their choice!

Thanks again for the post, You've prompted folks to fess up!!!
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Sooty42 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:54 pm

I have limited experience. My dog doesn’t range very far, probably is usually 75-125 yds. I’m totally fine with that. He finds and points birds and sometimes I shoot one. I think a dog ranging out to 500 yds plus would stress me out and I don’t want to spend $700 on a gps unit. I would rather have a dog work on the closer side and enjoy my hunt as opposed to wondering where my dog is. I guess I’m saying it’s preference thing.

This is my first hunting dog and we just finished our second season together. He seems to expand his range with each hunt, so who knows he might range a lot further as he keeps maturing. And maybe years from now when I get my second hunting dog I’ll be ready for one with a bit more range.

Kiger2:
I could see myself having fun following a flusher in the chukar hills. It would have to be something cool though, like a Boykin or a field bred English cocker. I’m just not sure it could beat the excitement of seeing my dog locked up on point and then trying to figure out where the covey is.
Sooty42
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 111
Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2016 4:39 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 8:14 pm

Sooty42,
I get the point thing, I hunted with my whim for some years.

Also hunted with a cocker for many years. My wife dog. Ran the golden and her together. she left no stone unturned! Did great on pheasants too1
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby KJ » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:53 am

While I will admit that range isn't EVERYTHING, the idea that close working flusher is just as effective on chukar is crazy talk. Just because you come home with a few birds each time doesn't prove otherwise. A hunter's personal experience hunting chukars, how good of shot they are, and bird numbers will all have a big impact on the number of birds you bring home.

People that hunt chukars with a flusher because that is the dog they have due to a history of hunting more waterfowl or pheasants- I get that. But, someone choosing a flusher for chukar because they think it is more effective probably needs their head examined :mrgreen:

As Sooty42 mentioned, some people like their dog to work closer because they want to watch them work and make game. We are all out there for personal enjoyment so, do what makes you happy. I get that, too.

Others may want the dog to work closer because they aren't in physically good enough shape to keep up. That is a pretty reasonable explanation for wanting a closer working dog, too.
User avatar
KJ
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 274
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:54 pm
Location: Baker City, OR

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Fri Feb 14, 2020 11:31 pm

KJ,
How many days afield do you have hunting chukars with pointers and ret side by side?

"Others may want the dog to work closer because they aren't in physically good enough shape to keep up." Well,,,,,,, isn't the point of having a pointer that you don't have to keep up??????? they hold the birds for you?????????? Im telling you the guys (not the dogs) with pointers that I hunt with are covering more ground than today than I do with my ret.

"People that hunt chukars with a flusher because that is the dog they have due to a history of hunting more waterfowl or pheasants". Well you don't my history, Im not going into all of it. You can look up my posts. But I started hunting chukars with a retriever in 1977.

I got into Feld trials with retrievers in 1987 or so with a Golden that turned out to be a really nice dog. I never took that dog water fowling until she was 9. We hunted chukars mostly and peasants when we could. So that's strike two for you!!! Want to keep going??? I can start dragging out pics if you want?

Its hard to admit what yo thought was true isn't, it will set you free though. Just read the previous posts again. I know you are trying to sell dogs , I get it.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:37 am

Kiger 2, Congratulations! You remain undefeated according to your own online argument scorecard. :crazyeyes:
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:44 am

Who would ever want their dog to run up that steep slope (working a cross wind as he runs) to check out that rock outcropping at the top for birds, robbing me of the pleasure of walking over there and checking it out myself. Dumb dog even drifted downwind in that cross wind so he could be at the down wind end of that cover at the top. How could anyone enjoy watching that kind of dog work! Two 30 mile days prior and still that dang dog of mine was running off like that. Gonna have to work on that this off season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnpeuqqtZik
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Meridiandave » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:10 am

The real question is being asked here is what makes a good chukar dog?

I have been lucky to hunt chukars with the following breeds: "Lots of griffons, Pudelpointers, GWP,
Draats, labs, French Brits, lots of setters, good number of English pointers, vizlas, small musterlanders, and GSP. All of them can be good chukar dogs.

To me a chukar dog must have the following qualities, first it must be connected to their handler. This does not mean hunting close. A dog can be connected to their handler at 400 yards. To me it means they are responding to your body cues, regularly checking back. Etc.

2nd) they must. Have desire. I should note that desire does not always translate to run. It is more just constantly hunting.

3) in terms of distance, I like my dogs to do 3.5 to 4.5 miles to each mile I do. The last day of the season, my 8.5 month old griff did 26.5 miles. I did around 6 or 7. I like that ratio. I prefer dogs that move left.to right as opposed to just punching a hole in the horizon.

4) they air scent and use the wind to their advantage. The last day of chukar hun season the dogs were making large loops in front of us. These loops would come within 40 yards. Then head downwind about 150 yards, the dogs were then heading in the crossing and between 150 and 250 yards the would turn into the wind. Run about 300 yards across our face and then repeat. Since all the dogs were 13 months or younger. It was beautiful to watch.

I have hunted with two labs that can hunt with me anytime. Their owners can put them on heel or whoa anytime and they can keep them within range. One is a very successful chukar hunter.

Things I hate. Bird busters. I have friends with an EP and a small musterlander that are bird busting machines. Drive us all nuts.

Get an effing GPS collar. One of our hunting buddies refuses to get a ups collar. He does very well financially so it is not a money issue. He fricken whistles like he is auditioning for Bridge over the river kwai. One friend actually quite hunting with him. It is not just that the noise can scare the birds ,deer, etc. It is that the constant whistling eff's up the other dogs.
Meridiandave
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 242
Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:40 am

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:18 am

Meridiandave,

I would hunt with that guy and his whistle one time only and it would be a very short hunt until that changed.

Not only is GPS wonderful while hunting it is even better when developing puppies. Being able to let my pup explore and learn in heavy cover (that dominates our country), while knowing where he was and not having to get nervous and call him out just because I have not seen him in awhile was key to letting him find his natural range and learn where to find game and handle it.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby orhunter » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:32 am

MD: Good stuff. All whistles should be shoved where the sun don't shine. Is the SM owner named, James?
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 4642
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:20 pm

Range isn't the big thing in chukar hunting, but rather desire. Because of the steep terrain and wear and tear on dog's feet by basalt this kind of hunting can be really tough. As KJ asks, how does your dog do after two hours of no bird contact? Although I enjoy watching my pup running around (being driven by his genetics) I mostly marvel at watching older dogs who appear to be obsessed with finding chukar no matter what. As a generalization I think their range gets bigger and points get made farther away.
User avatar
Bruce Schwartz
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 1001
Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 4:52 pm
Location: Alaska

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby Kiger2 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:28 am

Averageguy,
Actually I remain vindicated by the posts in this thread. Im sorry, but the facts can't be denied.

As to your video.Thank you for posting it as I think there's a lot to learn from it and people who haven't hunted chukars will gain some insight.

One, This is very easy chukar country.

What your dog did would be a very nice blind if you had a bird down. But I would never let a dog cover that much ground in a straight line, I would manage his hunt. (Orhunter this would take a whistle in your mouth, not in your a***) I would have stopped him and sent him downwind to the right and then let him move up towards the cover so he could use more wind to cover more what we would both agree would be more productive ground. If you watch the video closely, the dog does take a turn to the right as he approached the cover. But, he doesnt go to the end as you stated. What if the birds are at the right hand end and he busts them??? So there's that.... Second. While I would suspect that that would be a good place to find chukars. Is it the only place they could be ???? If there were birds on the downwind side of the line the dog took, he would miss them. Period. And if the birds were there and he pointed them, the previous posts and my experience would suggest that they may not be there by the time you arrive.

What if the birds are not in the cover? what if they are on their way to water, feed or on their way back from same? A dog quartering back and forth would cover more ground thoroughly and catch those birds.

Assuming the wind is left to right, I would approach the cover with my ret from the initial perspective to a ways to the right, maybe 150 yards or so. If ???? the birds are there, I don't want to take a straight line to them as they are more likely to flush wild if they think I know they are there.(they may run to the backside of the ridge and flush, Ive seen enough tracks in the snow to know that could happen). If I take a line to the right, they may think Im going to pass them and given the crosswind I can cover all the ground to my left with my dogs nose. Any birds to my left we will pick up. Birds to my right we will miss, but by less ground than your dog missed them. If the birds are in the cover and I move to the right, as I gain elevation and get on top they are more likely to hold as I approach from their elevation or above and my dogs nose will let me know they are there.

If you review a lot of the previous posts, your will see that even if the dog did find birds there and point them, they may not be there when you arrive.

So Average guy, go ahead and stand there and watch your dog bust birds!!! It was really neat watching him cover ground.

In my experience whistles have NO impact on chukars, just on hunters. I also know from experience that dogs can't always hear your voice and if they do, may not respond to it as well as a whistle. So when you need a whistle to get your dogs attention and can't do it,, your voice is a signal of two things, one yelling is far more annoying than a whistle, two you don't know how to train a dog....

Average guy, got any more vides? Sure I can find more things to help educate folks.
Kiger2
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 620
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

Re: range for chukar dog

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:39 am

Quartering is literally the worst ground pattern a pointing dog can ever run, especially in big open country with widely scattered birds.

Handling my dog's ground pattern while searching for birds as I handle him on a blind retrieve. Yea, gonna pass on that sage advice too.

That is a beautiful piece of dog work in that video, to anyone with eyes, experience and character to acknowledge it. The dog covers a big chunk of country potentially holding birds, working in a cross wind coming from his left, intelligently drifts downwind when he reaches cover at the top.

Your baseless accusation of "busting birds" has no nexus with what that dog did on the entire trip.

The other hunters with decades of experience in that country, who witnessed his performance days in a row were most impressed and said so repeatedly.

Kiger2,

You keep on blowing your whistle, waving your arms, walking quartering patterns with your dog in flushing range all over those mountains, I truly could not care less as it has zero effect on me and my enjoyment hunting with my dog.

Wow did we have fun.
AverageGuy
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2630
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:05 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests