Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby RowdyGSP » Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:25 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:So.....if we're hunting without a dog and cripple a pheasant, it should be illegal to shoot it as it runs away?

Same with a crippled duck or goose on the water; just let it die and rot?


GH, if you would please go back and read my original post I clearly state that my opinion is only towards already "un-injured" birds.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:37 pm

RowdyGSP wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:So.....if we're hunting without a dog and cripple a pheasant, it should be illegal to shoot it as it runs away?

Same with a crippled duck or goose on the water; just let it die and rot?


GH, if you would please go back and read my original post I clearly state that my opinion is only towards already "un-injured" birds.


Go to my first post; where do you draw a line? Used to be a lot of people that didn't hunt from tree stands thought tree stands should be banned. People that didn't bait deer thought baiting should be illegal. Guys shooting recurves and long bows thought they should get a special season. How about electronic calls for predators? A limit on number of waterfowl decoys? See the problem here? What one person considers unethical or unsportsmanlike like another considers a perfectly natural hunting practice.

It is a very slippery slope.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby RowdyGSP » Mon Jul 08, 2019 10:21 pm

GH, I can certainly see that side of the matter and understand where you're coming from on that. For me, I will never ground sluice or water swat a bird that isn't already injured and at risk of escaping. I have zero respect for those individuals who do choose to ground sluice birds, but that is their prerogative to do so, where legal. Nobody who has dogs on the ground has any business sluicing birds anyway, in most cases.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby Willie T » Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:57 am

flitecontrol wrote:Willie T, I'm just trying to fact check what you wrote about "fragile populations of game birds". To my knowledge, no species of game bird has ever become "fragile" due to legal sport hunting. Sage grouse populations are way down, but it's well documented that habitat changes are the cause, not hunting. Ditto for the bobwhite quail in many parts of the South. I really don't see the connection between market hunting that was done on the scale that doomed the passenger pigeon and " some slack jawed redneck wipe(ing) out an entire covey of tightly bunched bobwhite or Hungarian partridge". Neither Huns nor bobwhite populations are in trouble.

I'm going to avoid characterizing hunters that take ethical positions differing from my own as substandard human beings, because that wouldn't be fair or accurate. People, including hunters, can agree to disagree without being disagreeable. Referring to an earlier thread, I disagree, for purely ethical reasons, with how some coyote tournaments are conducted, but I'm not going to characterize participants as oblivious dolts.


Flitecontrol,
I used the passenger pigeon hunter as an example. They were hunted to extinction. Legally or not, I'm not good with that.

In much of the Huns range east of the Rockies, in areas I hunt, Hun numbers were making a comeback from a downward trend when they got hammered by a hard winter and the outlook is again bleak for the near future.
Bobwhite Quail have disappeared from much of their range across the south. In other areas in the south there are a very few remnant coveys and the outlook is bleak. Landowners, biologists, and conservation groups have been working with limited success since the 1980's, attempting to bring them back. Interpret their population how you like.

Back on Topic:
Legal or not, I don't ground sluice healthy game birds. I take pride in my ability as a wingshooter. My stance on pot shooting is it is unsporting. In Oklahoma the law backs that up and a pot shooter is an outlaw hunter, which is what Rowdy asked about.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby booger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:43 am

People who are above ground swatting are one thing, trying to get a law passed to outlaw it is crossing the elitist hunter line to a startling degree.

Maybe we should only be allowed bow and arrows then. You know, in the name of fair chase. And none of that compound bow stuff either or crossbows.

I'll ground swat if I want and I don't give a thought to elitist hunter's opinions. In fact I've called birds in from the middle of the lake on water before and shot them on the water and would do it again.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby Willie T » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:25 am

booger wrote:People who are above ground swatting are one thing, trying to get a law passed to outlaw it is crossing the elitist hunter line to a startling degree.

Maybe we should only be allowed bow and arrows then. You know, in the name of fair chase. And none of that compound bow stuff either or crossbows.

I'll ground swat if I want and I don't give a thought to elitist hunter's opinions. In fact I've called birds in from the middle of the lake on water before and shot them on the water and would do it again.


Holy crap! I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My family farmed. We had bird dogs and excellent bird hunting on family land. We shared that with fellow sportsmen. Pot shooting was against the law. I had nothing to do with that law other than follow it. Crap!
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby JTracyII » Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:40 am

Willie T wrote:
booger wrote:People who are above ground swatting are one thing, trying to get a law passed to outlaw it is crossing the elitist hunter line to a startling degree.

Maybe we should only be allowed bow and arrows then. You know, in the name of fair chase. And none of that compound bow stuff either or crossbows.

I'll ground swat if I want and I don't give a thought to elitist hunter's opinions. In fact I've called birds in from the middle of the lake on water before and shot them on the water and would do it again.


Holy crap! I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My family farmed. We had bird dogs and excellent bird hunting on family land. We shared that with fellow sportsmen. Pot shooting was against the law. I had nothing to do with that law other than follow it. Crap!



Willie,

I have no dog in this fight or a strong opinion about the topic, but in Oklahoma it is not illegal to shoot a duck on the water. To shoot a quail on the ground it is though. I also live and hunt in this great state.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby booger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:24 am

Willie T wrote:
booger wrote:People who are above ground swatting are one thing, trying to get a law passed to outlaw it is crossing the elitist hunter line to a startling degree.

Maybe we should only be allowed bow and arrows then. You know, in the name of fair chase. And none of that compound bow stuff either or crossbows.

I'll ground swat if I want and I don't give a thought to elitist hunter's opinions. In fact I've called birds in from the middle of the lake on water before and shot them on the water and would do it again.


Holy crap! I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My family farmed. We had bird dogs and excellent bird hunting on family land. We shared that with fellow sportsmen. Pot shooting was against the law. I had nothing to do with that law other than follow it. Crap!


Where did you read that I advised anyone to break the law? And how do you figure my post was directed your way when I mentioned "trying to get a law passed"? Wow indeed.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby Willie T » Tue Jul 09, 2019 9:31 am

JTracyII wrote:
Willie T wrote:
booger wrote:People who are above ground swatting are one thing, trying to get a law passed to outlaw it is crossing the elitist hunter line to a startling degree.

Maybe we should only be allowed bow and arrows then. You know, in the name of fair chase. And none of that compound bow stuff either or crossbows.

I'll ground swat if I want and I don't give a thought to elitist hunter's opinions. In fact I've called birds in from the middle of the lake on water before and shot them on the water and would do it again.


Holy crap! I grew up in rural Oklahoma. My family farmed. We had bird dogs and excellent bird hunting on family land. We shared that with fellow sportsmen. Pot shooting was against the law. I had nothing to do with that law other than follow it. Crap!



Willie,

I have no dog in this fight or a strong opinion about the topic, but in Oklahoma it is not illegal to shoot a duck on the water. To shoot a quail on the ground it is though. I also live and hunt in this great state.


Yes that is the law I grew up with.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby Dmog » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:29 am

JTracyII wrote:I have no dog in this fight or a strong opinion about the topic, but in Oklahoma it is not illegal to shoot a duck on the water. To shoot a quail on the ground it is though. I also live and hunt in this great state.


Growing up here in Kansas, I guess thats why we called it "Arkansasing the bird" vs "Oklahomaing" :lol: No offense to the great state of Arkansas intended.

FYI, Illegal in Kansas: Illegal Pursuit. "No wild gamebird (except turkey) may be shot at unless that bird is in flight. Turkeys may be shot on the ground or in flight, but not while sitting in trees."
Last edited by Dmog on Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:36 am

Willie T wrote:Flitecontrol,
I used the passenger pigeon hunter as an example. They were hunted to extinction. Legally or not, I'm not good with that.

In much of the Huns range east of the Rockies, in areas I hunt, Hun numbers were making a comeback from a downward trend when they got hammered by a hard winter and the outlook is again bleak for the near future.
Bobwhite Quail have disappeared from much of their range across the south. In other areas in the south there are a very few remnant coveys and the outlook is bleak. Landowners, biologists, and conservation groups have been working with limited success since the 1980's, attempting to bring them back. Interpret their population how you like.

Back on Topic:
Legal or not, I don't ground sluice healthy game birds. I take pride in my ability as a wingshooter. My stance on pot shooting is it is unsporting. In Oklahoma the law backs that up and a pot shooter is an outlaw hunter, which is what Rowdy asked about.
Willie


I think pretty much everyone wishes the passenger pigeon was still around, but my point is that it wasn't sport hunting that wiped them out. I feel using them as an example in this discussion is somewhat misleading. Game bird populations fluctuate, sometimes due to weather, which cannot be controlled, and by long term habitat changes. Habitat can be manipulated, but economics is usually the deciding factor. For example, Farmer Brown can get an additional four bushels of grain from his land by clearing a fencerow. Unless he's a quail or rabbit hunter that understands those animals need that fencerow to survive, that habitat will be gone because there is economic incentive to do so. While ground swatting can be outlawed, it really is less than a drop in the bucket as far as population losses go. Quail haven't "disappeared from much of their range across the south.", but their numbers have dwindled, as stated earlier, due to habitat changes. And in no way is ground swatting responsible for their decline. Where landowners have managed their property for quail hunting, there are lots of quail. My "interpretation" regarding these populations is based on accepted studies.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:38 am

Dmog wrote:
JTracyII wrote:I have no dog in this fight or a strong opinion about the topic, but in Oklahoma it is not illegal to shoot a duck on the water. To shoot a quail on the ground it is though. I also live and hunt in this great state.


Growing up here in Kansas, I guess thats why we called it "Arkansasing the bird" vs "Oklahomaing" :lol: No offense to the great state of Arkansas intended.


Off topic, but since you mentioned it, ever hear of an "Arkansas bag limit"?
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby Dmog » Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:45 am

flitecontrol wrote:Off topic, but since you mentioned it, ever hear of an "Arkansas bag limit"?


A different forum and I would go there...but we are full of respectable ladies and gentlemen, so I will withhold my comment other than this one! :D
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby JONOV » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:06 am

jlw034 wrote:
RowdyGSP wrote:
I watched a guy I no longer hunt with ground swat a covey of chukars. He got 6 in one shot. 2 of them died immediately, as 4 of them fluttered downhill, very much alive. 3 dogs recovered 2 of those 4 birds and 2 were lost as crips. Please enlighten me how that is ethical.


Is that any less ethical than flock shooting the same birds, with the same result?

Two thoughts. First, I've never chukar hunted, but what are the odds you can line up 6 birds at once?

Second, don't confuse "Ethics" with "Sportsmanship." If you take a single grounded bird, that's a much more ethical shot than one that's in the air, but it isn't the least bit "Sporting." If you go to the UK, you would find that they consider the farthest shots the most "Sporting." If the duck decoys at 15 yards, where's the sport compared to shooting him at 45?

And with water swatting, if the point of the hunt is to lure in ducks, and you do such a good job they land, why is that less ethical than shooting them on the wing?

Finally, I think that we get into murky territory talking about legislating ethics. Let the limits be set to conserve populations of game, and rules regarding methods do the same. While it may not be strictly sportsmanlike to water swat, I don't think it harms the resource on the whole.
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Re: Should ground/water swatting be illegal?

Postby booger » Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:48 am

JONOV wrote:
jlw034 wrote:
RowdyGSP wrote:
I watched a guy I no longer hunt with ground swat a covey of chukars. He got 6 in one shot. 2 of them died immediately, as 4 of them fluttered downhill, very much alive. 3 dogs recovered 2 of those 4 birds and 2 were lost as crips. Please enlighten me how that is ethical.


Is that any less ethical than flock shooting the same birds, with the same result?

Two thoughts. First, I've never chukar hunted, but what are the odds you can line up 6 birds at once?

Second, don't confuse "Ethics" with "Sportsmanship." If you take a single grounded bird, that's a much more ethical shot than one that's in the air, but it isn't the least bit "Sporting." If you go to the UK, you would find that they consider the farthest shots the most "Sporting." If the duck decoys at 15 yards, where's the sport compared to shooting him at 45?

And with water swatting, if the point of the hunt is to lure in ducks, and you do such a good job they land, why is that less ethical than shooting them on the wing?

Finally, I think that we get into murky territory talking about legislating ethics. Let the limits be set to conserve populations of game, and rules regarding methods do the same. While it may not be strictly sportsmanlike to water swat, I don't think it harms the resource on the whole.


Define sportsmanship or sportsman.

And you do realize you just made skybusting out to be a sporting thing to do right?
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