FF in 4 Days

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:00 am

First he says he only used for on one dog. BS. He has a dog truck and competed in FT from the start. I knew and ran against him some 40 years ago. Voigt discusses FF when a dog is brutalized, not when proper FF is done. I NEVER had a dog with scars on his ears and I ff’d hundreds. Anyone that scares a dogs ears doesn’t understand FF.

As far as upper level V dog tests, they only require a small fraction of the training an Open dog does and should not require the same level of force.

FF is still misunderstood by a multitude of people and as far as I’m concerned is a training method only the pro or his equivalent can and should do.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:12 pm

I like Hillman's approach and own a number of his DVDs. They are very well done. There is a lot of free videos he has done on Youtube.

I think he was drawing on decades old stuff in his comments on FF and that devalued that discussion in terms of today's methods and alternatives. I too was around the FT Retriever scene decades ago and I do agree it was brutal on dogs. I also agree that does not relate real well with current day FF programs.

As I posted earlier in the thread I bought and studied Evan Graham's DVDs which are well done. I did not use the ear pinch part of it but the progression is same as what I have been doing with Tess, minus the ear pinch. I used treats and a clicker in the teaching phase which is absent in Graham's program. I also am bypassing his "Fetch, No Fetch" as previously discussed as well. I am following his progression for the most part.

Hillman's dated comments about the early days of FF, does not negate the current day point however that he lays out an approach to Trained Retrieve which is different than the standard FF.

It is very obvious in Hillman's DVDs that he is getting excellent response and work out of his dogs, including some level of work that just about all on this board would be very pleased with and proud of. His dogs are working with very high drive and enthusiasm.

Notions you have to FF a dog to pass high level Hunt tests are refuted by folks doing it well on a large scale, using a Trained Retrieve program vs a traditional FF program.

Speaking of Hunt Tests, I spent today working an AKC Retriever Test in central Iowa. Worked a live flyer station on the land series and then used a winger on the water work.

The things I saw dogs struggling with had nothing to do with FF. Things like not having stretched the dog out in distances on marks sufficiently in training, and not having adequately exposed the JR dogs to marks through decoy spreads.

I enjoyed it except it hit the 90s.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 05, 2021 8:16 pm

Force would probably never come into play with a hunting dog. Only sometimes with a V dog test. Some have to be forced on water retrieves and that's about it. The hunt tests your went to are a FAR cry from AKC field trials. If you're not of that world, you would never understand them; scented points, poison birds, quads, quints, inverted birds, blinds off shot flyers; it's a whole different world and THAT'S where force is absolutely necessary, for the All Age and Qual dog's. You HAVE to be able to make them go because they WILL refuse you. That and the tremendous bond true FF builds between the dog and the trainer are what people don't understand and comprehend. Anyone can train a hunt test dog, NAVHDA dog, or derby dog and not really FF it. Things change in the world of the AKC and when there can be only ONE winner, not a standard. The difference is monumental.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Jun 05, 2021 9:19 pm

Yea, It is definitely a higher standard of training and precision.

A world hardly any Vdogs can play in. Just not the right type of dog for that level of control. Truth be told most retrievers cannot as well.

It is a misnomer however that a Trained Retrieve does not have an element of Force/Pressure and cannot make a dog retrieve when it might otherwise choose not to. Just did not pinch their ear as part of the training process.

I ran some dogs through the ear pinch in the past. Not a big difference in the long haul relationship vs those I have not is what I would say, but it was definitely a harder period in the relationship while I was doing it.

I find that training the dog first without Force and then overlaying an element of Force via the ecollar is very effective to get a highly reliable dog for a wide spectrum of hunting and Hunt Test environments.

This discussion and Forum is not geared towards telling a pro retriever trainer how to go about their craft.

I think that too many amateur trainers (like myself) are pushed into using a training technique that is not best for them and their Vdogs, and it is certainly not the only way for them to meet their goals.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:04 pm

Yes, I've been saying for about 20 years of so on these boards that you don't need a true FF for a hunting dog. No doubt in my mind about it. However, were I still a pro, that's sure as hell the way I'd be doing it because it is far more efficient and faster.

The method you use can not and will not, make a dog relieve that doesn't want to. Never. However, there are few times in hunting or hunt training situations a dog will balk that strongly.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:55 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Yes, I've been saying for about 20 years of so on these boards that you don't need a true FF for a hunting dog. No doubt in my mind about it. However, were I still a pro, that's sure as hell the way I'd be doing it because it is far more efficient and faster.

The method you use can not and will not, make a dog relieve that doesn't want to. Never. However, there are few times in hunting or hunt training situations a dog will balk that strongly.


FF is a Dogma that will never die in some circles.

Hillman made an excellent point in that first clip I posted. We train many other commands to a dog using a progression of teaching which involves no physical pain to the dog, particularly during the teaching phase of training.

I believe Hillman is truthful when he says he had not been using FF on his dogs for a long time now. His Youtube videos and DVDs are excellent information. Many are succeeding with his approach.

This clip lists his accomplishments. Notable to me is how many of those top Derby dogs have FC titles as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB95Dg2sSJY

Hanging out with Retriever folks at training sessions, tests and trials it becomes very obvious to me that all run into problems to train through.

It is also obvious to me that the trainers who best figure out how to motivate their dogs with positive re-enforcement are the ones having the most fun and success.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sun Jun 06, 2021 5:47 pm

Traditional FF is also an organized, step by step program, using both motivation and pressure. Many don't understand that.

What I think you'll find in Bill's accomplishments is that he made the high point derby dog's, then they went to other trainers to finish. He never did, though he may now, have any interest in All Age Dog's. As I have said, I don't think you can compete in an Open stake without a totaly ff'd dog. Nor to my knowledge, has there ever been a FC that wasn't a forced dog. And today, a collar dog. That was not always the case when shotguns were king.

You can feed them all the cookies you want, and break down every concept as completely as you can, but you cannot train an Open dog without FF.

The system you use is great for the hunting or V dog tests and the one nearly all should use, but they'll never play one on one with the big dog's using it. IMO.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:04 pm

So here is Hillman with a puppy that was not yet 5 months old at the time. Brought along with his system of motivating the puppy from an early age, (and then continuing throughout it's life), with a system of using an exciting bumper game and associated goofy sounding voice ques for it.

No FF.

This puppy is the one that goes on to be the 2020 high point national derby champion.

The guy is a virtual treasure trove of training genius with tons of free Youtube videos on his channel, as well as a full DVD series on training retrievers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgxobxiPpsU
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:07 am

AverageGuy wrote:So here is Hillman with a puppy that was not yet 5 months old at the time. Brought along with his system of motivating the puppy from an early age, (and then continuing throughout it's life), with a system of using an exciting bumper game and associated goofy sounding voice ques for it.

No FF.

This puppy is the one that goes on to be the 2020 high point national derby champion.

The guy is a virtual treasure trove of training genius with tons of free Youtube videos on his channel, as well as a full DVD series on training retrievers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgxobxiPpsU


A Derby dog is not an all age dog and when one is run for points, they can be difficult to break out later as an open dog. I had a dog named Diesel that was making a run for National Derby Champion. He had 32 points and was trained and run by a different trainer. The dog began freezing, or claming on birds so the owner and trainer sold him to my client. I begged him not to buy the dog but he did stating he thought I could train and figure out any problem on the planet. I agreed, but said no more derby's, all age training only. We had to start all over again, obedience, FF, everything. I could control, but never CURE the freezing but without FF, you COULD NOT get a bird from the dog. I made him a QAA and took an Open 4th a year later. Derby is not ALL AGE and you should not confuse one accomplishment with the other.

As I've said and said, the modified FF, which is just really a course in Hold, is great for all hunting dog's. Not so great to All Age dog's.

There is a trainer on here named MG. They should chime in on this.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Mon Jun 07, 2021 1:45 pm

In a nutshell the FF method I was taught incorporates a solid foundation, ear pinch, overlay of e-collar and transition to just e-collar. There is praise throughout the process and the foundation work is the longest part of the process and the ear pinch the shortest.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:25 pm

ryanr wrote:In a nutshell the FF method I was taught incorporates a solid foundation, ear pinch, overlay of e-collar and transition to just e-collar. There is praise throughout the process and the foundation work is the longest part of the process and the ear pinch the shortest.


Did you ever get your dog through the program?

I recall lots of problems, clamming and crunching of birds, over a very long period of time.

Which is a point GH has made numerous times in the thread.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:13 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:So here is Hillman with a puppy that was not yet 5 months old at the time. Brought along with his system of motivating the puppy from an early age, (and then continuing throughout it's life), with a system of using an exciting bumper game and associated goofy sounding voice ques for it.

No FF.

This puppy is the one that goes on to be the 2020 high point national derby champion.

The guy is a virtual treasure trove of training genius with tons of free Youtube videos on his channel, as well as a full DVD series on training retrievers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgxobxiPpsU


A Derby dog is not an all age dog and when one is run for points, they can be difficult to break out later as an open dog. I had a dog named Diesel that was making a run for National Derby Champion. He had 32 points and was trained and run by a different trainer. The dog began freezing, or claming on birds so the owner and trainer sold him to my client. I begged him not to buy the dog but he did stating he thought I could train and figure out any problem on the planet. I agreed, but said no more derby's, all age training only. We had to start all over again, obedience, FF, everything. I could control, but never CURE the freezing but without FF, you COULD NOT get a bird from the dog. I made him a QAA and took an Open 4th a year later. Derby is not ALL AGE and you should not confuse one accomplishment with the other.

As I've said and said, the modified FF, which is just really a course in Hold, is great for all hunting dog's. Not so great to All Age dog's.

There is a trainer on here named MG. They should chime in on this.


Earlier I posted the video clip of Hillmann's accomplishments and noted how all those dogs went on to achieve FC titles. One is in the HOF. Apparently his approach did not hold them back too badly.

I have never pretended to express any expertise as to the training of All Age Open class retrievers. A topic far removed from anything 99% of the readers and contributors on this board are doing with their Vdogs.

I do see a bunch of Retrievers who have been through FF programs having major problems along the way so it would definitely seem that FF is not the cure to all challenges in dog training.

I saw a poor dog freeze up and lay down on the bank in the test I worked this past Saturday and that dog had been through a FF program.

I think the mentality that Force is the answer yields far more problems than solutions for most Amateur trainers vs those that strive to find ways to motivate their dogs and are quick to back up and simplify things when they are having problems.

I see what Hillmann has achieved with that not yet 5 month old puppy, which goes on to be the 2020 High Point Derby dog, and I get excited. The guy is a genius when it comes to motivating and developing his dogs. He has other videos on Youtube which discuss training vs conditioning. Great stuff that would benefit any amateur trainer to listen to.

After working with my pup this morning I needed to give Spud something to do so I used the same setup. Had not worked this with him for over a year. I enjoyed his enthusiasm. Never pinched his ear.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFB4Im-SsiA
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:08 am

AverageGuy wrote:
ryanr wrote:In a nutshell the FF method I was taught incorporates a solid foundation, ear pinch, overlay of e-collar and transition to just e-collar. There is praise throughout the process and the foundation work is the longest part of the process and the ear pinch the shortest.


Did you ever get your dog through the program?

I recall lots of problems, clamming and crunching of birds, over a very long period of time.

Which is a point GH has made numerous times in the thread.


That was my first dog and my first time doing it. And not quite the same method or skilled application. However my second dog sailed thru it and has never chomped or killed a game bird that wasn't already dead. In fact, at the end of the season I end up with more ducks in my pen than I started with. And that accounts for the other dog killing every duck it brings back.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:19 am

ryanr wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:
ryanr wrote:In a nutshell the FF method I was taught incorporates a solid foundation, ear pinch, overlay of e-collar and transition to just e-collar. There is praise throughout the process and the foundation work is the longest part of the process and the ear pinch the shortest.


Did you ever get your dog through the program?

I recall lots of problems, clamming and crunching of birds, over a very long period of time.

Which is a point GH has made numerous times in the thread.


That was my first dog and my first time doing it. And not quite the same method or skilled application. However my second dog sailed thru it and has never chomped or killed a game bird that wasn't already dead. In fact, at the end of the season I end up with more ducks in my pen than I started with. And that accounts for the other dog killing every duck it brings back.


A lot of experienced gun dog's kill every bird they bring back. Why should they get bit or pummeled by wings? To me, there is NO advantages in getting a bird back alive. Then I have to kill it. So, unless they stop to dine on it, I don't care if it's alive or dead. Does get expensive for training ducks though. :D
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:00 am

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
ryanr wrote:
ryanr wrote:That was my first dog and my first time doing it. And not quite the same method or skilled application. However my second dog sailed thru it and has never chomped or killed a game bird that wasn't already dead. In fact, at the end of the season I end up with more ducks in my pen than I started with. And that accounts for the other dog killing every duck it brings back.


A lot of experienced gun dog's kill every bird they bring back. Why should they get bit or pummeled by wings? To me, there is NO advantages in getting a bird back alive. Then I have to kill it. So, unless they stop to dine on it, I don't care if it's alive or dead. Does get expensive for training ducks though. :D


I don't care either I was just commenting that I have one dog that is quite hard mouthed and the other isn’t at all and both are actually sound retrievers (as far as bringing back game they're sent for.) My hard-mouthed one is just also a stubborn son of a gun with a possessive streak. He delivers to me but does not present cleanly, turns his head away, etc. He's a helluva a dog for cripples though, very tenacious. My second one brings birds back in the exact condition she finds them and delivers to hand.

She impressed the heck out of me last fall at the end of a test I was volunteering at. I had them both with me and let them out at the end of the day. Both raced out to thr send point and the older one took off on his own duck search. She did too. He got into a duck and she saw him get it and instead of coming for and taking his she just continued on her own away from him. She wanted her own duck. Long story short she got into an extended chase all the way down and across our lake/bog. I lost sight of her and also realized the kayak was already packed up and gone. Some time later I started to see her swimming and crawling over snags, lily pads, etc, with a duck. She comes back right to heel and delivers the duck just as she caught it, alive. Total retrieve distance was over 400 yards. I put the dogs up and let the duck go unharmed.
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