FF in 4 Days

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Willie - thanks for your kind comments! I’m really not at a great handicap in these tests despite my whining about it though. Most hunt tests are very much about obedience so that part’s easy. My dog is a pin-point marker so that’s (thankfully) easy. The part that is the hardest for me is getting crisp handling at distances and that’s where the ecollar shines. Consequently, it involves a fair amount of pressure and that’s the part that I don’t like. And the rules have gotten harder about keeping on the line to the blind. Plus I’m doing this steering thing and if I nick her for not taking a command she’ll sit instead of just changing direction a little. Work in process.

There was a PP (Man of War) who got an HRCH title a number of years ago so it can happen! I think out of 3000 titles he was the only one though.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:52 pm

Thanks Ryanr!
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Re: FF in 4 Daysell

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:48 pm

Thanks you guys! We’ll have some peak moments and the usual disappointments but hunt tests and the accompanying training are just a way to keep having fun until the real fun starts this fall!
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:29 pm

Bruce,
I hope your weekend has been successful so far.

As far as delievering the bird alive? Well Im like you a bit in this sense that Im a little outside the box. I use Dobbs for hold. Its clearly the most thorough method for for hold. Where i differ is that I proceed through the program and dont stop with thawed birds but continue with live birds. Im not familiar with any program that does this. And really, why would you not train to the live bird standard?

Now I still get a bird back thats dead that I thought should be alive, but I bet over 90% of the time they are alive if not dead from the shot. I even had a chuakr that when I got back to the truck and got it out of my bird bag it got up and flew off! Had to go hunt him again and shoot him.

Bruce, Im well aware of the difference and all the mumbo jumbo between pressure , aversive, and using Old Roy treats, so save your breath.

Its not about speed, its about effectiveness. You think you can PR and overlay with the Ecollar. I dont think that the dog gets enough experience with turning off pressure and that you miss an important part of the process.

As to your steering issue. I would try teaching angle backs in the more tradition method but use the same tone used for steering and a hand signal. That way if you stop pup and he turns to look you have a method to communicate what you want.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sat Jun 22, 2019 7:54 pm

Thanks Kiger. I don't have anything more to add. It's like trying to convince a climate denier man's role in global warming. It ain't going to happen.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Kiger2 » Sat Jun 22, 2019 8:04 pm

Bruce,

I didnt know you were a climate denier?
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby crackerd » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:08 am

Kiger2 wrote:Bruce,

I didnt know you were a climate denier?


My intel is Bruce ain't an e-collar "climate" denier, but dials up the heat only when absolutely necessary! :mrgreen:

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby woodboro » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:00 pm

two people I know have taught fetch training in ONE DAY...
This was with Drahthaars

First technique was on a table , and never saw the actual method , but it was force , and then encouragement.

It was witnessed by a friend of mine , and the person that did the training had over 50 years experience.
(point on was this was a female)

Second method was by a retriever trainer owning a DD.

It was witnessed by another friend who told me in detail how it was done.
In a VERY VERY small room , like a closet, the dog and trainer were in it , and a bumper. Started by hold , then by pickup
and around and around the room they went. Hours , but the dog figured it had to pick up and sit to complete the retrieve or she would never
get out.

I have to say after words the training in the field was very repetitive , but it worked.

I believe in long FF repetitive work. 5 sessions a day 10-15 minutes ending on a great note.
I have a dog now that is some what soft.... so I did not stress him out and if anything leaned to 3 a day.
He is off table and doing drags now , alittle sloppy on the sit at end of retrieve , but holding very well.
Ironically with age , we still try different things then when I was younger, and I am trying less training , but keeping him in the ball game.
Tryin' to peak at test time as usual.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby woodboro » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:03 pm

I also want to mention I am only doing maybe 5 bumper retrieves a day now , and working the dog to eventually carry a 3 pound wood
dumpbell.
He'll eventually be required to carry this a qtr of mile a day to build his neck up. (to carry a fox) and long drag tracks.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:01 pm

woodboro wrote:two people I know have taught fetch training in ONE DAY...
.

What is the difference between "Fetch Training" and "Force Fetch" ?
.
.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:39 pm

Doc E wrote:
woodboro wrote:two people I know have taught fetch training in ONE DAY...
.

What is the difference between "Fetch Training" and "Force Fetch" ?
.
.


Must be teaching the retrieve with no FF. One can only wonder.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby woodboro » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:46 pm

Force fetch - is in my opinion a methodical approach to retrieving.
Requiring several sessions a day for 7-11 weeks to train the dog repetitively.

This is what I do , and by the time he hits the ground and completes his training , probably has about 350 retrieves under his belt.
This is from the hand , to a foot , to many yards.

Fetch training may or may not include force, and may or may not include repetition doing the same small to large repetition retrieves.

*I had a hunting buddy , that basically taught his dog while he hunted.
The dog was not reliable for 3 years , but after hunting hard , and over a 10 year life span had about 10,000 points.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Doc E » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:02 pm

woodboro wrote:.
Fetch training may or may not include force, and may or may not include repetition doing the same small to large repetition retrieves.


That answer sounds like you are either a Democrat or an Attorney, :lol: :lol:
,
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby woodboro » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:29 pm

as everyone has stated on this board - everyone trains differently and so I am diplomatic to my answers to you and everyone else.

I will share a story of a friend.
he had owned shorthairs and wirehairs and took the plunge and bought a DD.
I had asked him if he ever force Broke a dog to fetch , and the answer was nope.
I advised him to build a table, and buy a book , as one suggestion was the Armbruster training manual.
He worked closely with his breeder.
He received very good scores on the spring and autumn test , and was walking around like a poppy -cock.
2 years ago , he bought another DD pup.
He was coming into his autumn test , and I get a call.
*Not unusual , cause it always comes my way.
I am having retrieve issues.
I reply did you fully BREAK the dog.
Answer I thought I did.
So we head to the field and the dog acts like a tard... I say lets go back to your table.
I ask him to show me his step by step process.
good grief , the guy was coddling the dog , not even FORCING the dog.
I showed him what to do , and every time I pinched the dogs ear, the owner winced .
Was shocked that this big tough guy couldn't ear pinch ( force break) his dog , and was ultimately surprised he passed the autumn test
with a dog that was never force broke.

Problem is I intro'ed him to the club , and the guy never even hunts his dogs.
I could of shot my self after witnessing what I saw.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby Buck Dancer » Sat Apr 24, 2021 12:06 pm

I ended up waiting for a few months and starting over on force fetch. The second time around was much easier. I trained him over a month, working on hold, then a few minutes of FF while watching TV.
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