State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:12 am

The show WPG people seem to have these restrictions more often.

A breeding restriction isn’t legal since after purchasing a pup it becomes the owners personal property. This is different than a breeder retaining breeding rights to a pup but that usually involves some compensation from the breeder. Some will sell a pup at a reduced price or maybe just give a person the use of a dog with the right to own if not bred. Some of these may be gentlemen’s agreements which are just fine.

I would never deal with a breeders who would claim a breeding restriction. It’s a personal thing, not a dog thing.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby jpost » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:50 pm

[quote="orhunter"]The show WPG people seem to have these restrictions more often.

(A breeding restriction isn’t legal since after purchasing a pup it becomes the owners personal property. This is different than a breeder retaining breeding rights to a pup but that usually involves some compensation from the breeder. Some will sell a pup at a reduced price or maybe just give a person the use of a dog with the right to own if not bred. Some of these may be gentlemen’s agreements which are just fine.)


Orhunter, When we send in for pedigrees on our pups. We have an option to put restrictions on them. You can still breed but you won't be able to register a litter or pups from them unless the restriction is lifted.
It is a limited pedigree. Some breeders do this to limit the use of there line to keep demand. That's ok, but poorer dogs may be filling the demand that people want and it limits you to out cross more often. If we have more breeders working on similar type we have more to pick from and can select from a larger pool. It takes #s to get the genetic hit that can selectively move a breed.

I have never restricted pedigrees and hope the people buying my pups are willing to test and objectively evaluate their dogs before using them for breeding. I will try to put better confirmation pups with people that will keep them intact for a while and have potential to come back and use them later on. If we restrict everything people spay/neuter right away and we can loose our genetic base with all the pups coming from only a few dogs.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby flitecontrol » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:25 pm

Meridiandave wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:
Urban_Redneck wrote:Do you believe the common practice of "Breeding Restricted" pedigrees ends up hurting the overall quality of a breed?


Is this supposed to apply to WPGs or other breeds? Never heard of it in WPGs.


Don't know what you are referencing here. I know 4 breeders off the top of my head that do breeding restrictions. 1 does not give breeding rights to anyone, restricting breeding to preserve market share as he does not test his dogs; 1 maintains all breeding rights; 1 allows breeding after hunt testing.


I wasn't familiar with the term, and assumed it was something a breed club did. Now understand it's a kennel specific thing. So even if you buy a pup, if the breeder doesn't want you to breed it, you can't? Sounds like it could be misused, especially by the above kennel that allows zero breeding of their pups. Is this kennel producing WPGs?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:16 pm

Jpost: Yea, I’ve heard of that kind of thing. Part of this has to do with the breeder knowing who they are selling a pup too. Proper screening of buyers goes a long way in finding the right homes for pups. Breeders willing to sell to whoever hands over the cash, aren’t doing due diligence and probably need something to fall back on. Can’t believe it actually works. We’re talking about hunting pups being sold to bonafide hunters, not the general public or wannabe’s.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby JONOV » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:58 am

orhunter wrote:The show WPG people seem to have these restrictions more often.

A breeding restriction isn’t legal since after purchasing a pup it becomes the owners personal property. This is different than a breeder retaining breeding rights to a pup but that usually involves some compensation from the breeder. Some will sell a pup at a reduced price or maybe just give a person the use of a dog with the right to own if not bred. Some of these may be gentlemen’s agreements which are just fine.

I would never deal with a breeders who would claim a breeding restriction. It’s a personal thing, not a dog thing.

Is it though? If its in the contract, is it legal? Two sides of that; some people say "well its in the contract so its legal" but that isn't always the case.
I don't know what recourse the breeder would have if they bred it anyway. The flip side of that is that they would have trouble getting registries for the litter.
I did hear about a PP breeder that bought dogs on restricted pedigrees that couldn't register the pups. People were upset and trying to figure out a "Damages" number (basically the cost of a registered dog) since they bought the dogs and couldn't register in NAVHDA, etc...
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby jarbo03 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:29 pm

Meridiandave wrote:
JONOV wrote:
Here's the thing about the standard. Even with an organization that has a lot of say-so over what gets bred like the VDD, there's still quite a variety in what they produce, especially superficially. I'll hear comments about how they've done a great job with consistent coats. Personally, I don't see it. You do see a variety in temperaments and hunting style among them. Actually quite a variety from what I see at NAVHDA. No, you don't have field trial type running dogs but you have a wide variety all the same.

The other thing, is that I think its hard to get everyone to agree on what part of the standard is the most important. If you have a dog that's a phenominal retriever and superb in the uplands but is an inch too tall and the coat is a bit softer than perfection, do you chose to breed it over a dog that's closer to the physical standard but inferior in the field?

I also seem to remember reading about the Stichelhaar, that part of the breeds undoing was that they had incredibly strict standards for breeding...to the point that they wouldn't breed dogs for silly things like their eyebrows growing in the wrong direction.


Harvey, sorry, I actually think we are on the same page with this one. I think the point we are trying to make is that you see some very good griffs start to appear in the 1990's. This is after the split as breeders were allowed to do what they want.

JONOV, I qouted you because you are absolutely correct. The reason is a thing called Genetic drift. What genetic drift refers to is the loss of genetic diversity from factors other than selection. Here is an example. A female is bred once and jas a litter. Only one of her children is bred. Mathmatecially half of the genetic diversity is lost with each generation. This is why geneticist have the 50/500 rule. It states the minimum breeding population should be 50 individuals in the short term and 500 individuals in the long term. I contend this is what was happening with the griffs in the late 1970's and early 80's. In another thread the issue was brought up to flitecontrol, why did they not breed back to the other females. He said becaise they were inferior. However, if we were looking at the program long term, that is exactly what they should have done.

On the other end of the spectrum is selection pressure. Testing, shows, breed wardens and evaluations that lead to individuals being excluded from breeding are examples of selection pressure. When your breeding standards get so tight that not enough individuals are being bred, genetic diversity is lost.

So in a perfect world, we would have 500 individuals available to breed and all of them tested. There we have the genetic diversity and the selection pressure.

Delmar Smith said he didn't care about titlles, he cared about the dogs and how it personally evaluated. In other words you can get a good dog without titles. We should always be looking for such dogs regardless of whether they have a perfect pedigree.


While i definitely believe Taz would improve the breed and any bloodline he would be added to, I feel he has been overlooked because of his lack of testing. Have done none after the NA. Always felt hunting every bird possible in the best and worst conditions showed me the most about a dog. 75-90 days a year in horrible conditions shows both physical and mental attributes.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:33 pm

I think we all agree, Taz has the goods. Anyone who has followed along doesn't need to be convinced. It's that darn paperwork again and the exposure to those who should know what the rest of us here know. Taz got the goods. How was the rest of the litter? Top breeders will need to know this also. This indicates gene strength, the ability to pass it on.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby jarbo03 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:07 pm

Breeders award, all 5 dogs tested prized.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby ANick » Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:12 pm

Just to toss in a thought on the NAVHDA breed restrictions on pedigrees.

When NAVHDA introduced the inclusion of the registry, for some of the German breed associations, this was a very big problem. Dogs could not be registered in both systems and receive papers from the German clubs for any offspring. Essentially, that translated to black-listing yourself from importing as well. The NAVHDA testing wasn't, and isn't, a bad thing, but NAVHDA only offers testing and maintaining a pedigree. There's no breed standard included or required.

A lot of US folks liked testing in NAVHDA, but until the breeding restriction came about, there was no way to play in the NAVHDA pool and maintain the good graces of the German breed groups. Once that restriction was available, the individual pups could be registered and tested under NAVHDA. The restriction stays in effect until the pup meets all the breeding requirements under the German rules, at which point the NAVHDA restriction may be lifted.

For the DLs at least, the single pup registration also limits breeders from any of the NAVHDA breeders awards and a few other odds and ends.

All that said, what it does do is let the pups be registered (albeit limited) and tested in NAVHDA , as a secondary test at least, for any pup that will have a breeding future. It also preserves the prerogatives of the Breed Association for the requirements for breeding. Not the least of which is the breed show approvals for type, conformation and coat, temperament and the inspection for any physical faults.

This to me is a fine reason to have the breeding restriction on the NAVHDA pedigree. I'm less thrilled with the use of it, as described above, for a breeder preserving a market exclusivity.

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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby ForestDump » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:49 pm

ANick wrote:Just to toss in a thought on the NAVHDA breed restrictions on pedigrees.

When NAVHDA introduced the inclusion of the registry, for some of the German breed associations, this was a very big problem. Dogs could not be registered in both systems and receive papers from the German clubs for any offspring. Essentially, that translated to black-listing yourself from importing as well. The NAVHDA testing wasn't, and isn't, a bad thing, but NAVHDA only offers testing and maintaining a pedigree. There's no breed standard included or required.

A lot of US folks liked testing in NAVHDA, but until the breeding restriction came about, there was no way to play in the NAVHDA pool and maintain the good graces of the German breed groups. Once that restriction was available, the individual pups could be registered and tested under NAVHDA. The restriction stays in effect until the pup meets all the breeding requirements under the German rules, at which point the NAVHDA restriction may be lifted.

For the DLs at least, the single pup registration also limits breeders from any of the NAVHDA breeders awards and a few other odds and ends.

All that said, what it does do is let the pups be registered (albeit limited) and tested in NAVHDA , as a secondary test at least, for any pup that will have a breeding future. It also preserves the prerogatives of the Breed Association for the requirements for breeding. Not the least of which is the breed show approvals for type, conformation and coat, temperament and the inspection for any physical faults.

This to me is a fine reason to have the breeding restriction on the NAVHDA pedigree. I'm less thrilled with the use of it, as described above, for a breeder preserving a market exclusivity.

Nick


Would it not be possible to instead just have the testing and keep records of the results without the registry or keeping of pedigrees?
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby ANick » Mon Apr 22, 2019 12:57 am

Forrest,
For NAVHDA? The dog has to be registered with NAVHDA to test in NAVHDA.
In the world of German dogs, the Ahnentafel (pedigree) is noted with just about all test or exams the dog ever undertakes.
If that clarifies anything??

Nick

P.S. FWIW, unlike the litter registry that Jarbo put up, we can't register the 'litter', just individual pups. Thus Breeder's Awards are not something we can receive. Not a big thing though.
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