State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

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State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Apr 08, 2019 10:02 pm

So after a discussion a couple of months ago on WPG. There was some discussion about what had been a more successfully breeding program the Bohemian WPG program or just the AKC or NAVHDA with the Korthals dogs. I decided to pull some statistics. I did this by hand, bit attached are some statistics from last year.

Dogs tested 371.
Dogs ran in Invitational 8. VC 1.
UT dogs tested 69. Dogs that prized 52.
Upt dogs tested 13 and 7 prized.
NA dogs that scored 105 or better 168. At least 64 had a 112 (I have to recount this because of a change I made to the numbers, but this is a worst case scenario).

I am not hear to argue that everything with the breed is perfect. I will say the chances of getting a good hard hunting griffon have never been better.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:19 am

Are those statistics just for WPG, or do they include the Fousek/Bohemian dogs too? Without a head-to-head comparison, it would be difficult to draw conclusions about the success of either breeding program. It would also be good to include the coat and conformation information as well. As you may be aware, many WPG have soft coats and either don't meet the breed standards for size or have less than stellar conformation. The only WPG club (at the time) felt they were at a point that they would have to outcross to improve the breed. Knowing the controversy it would cause, the decision wasn't made lightly.

I know there are a lot of good hunters among WPGs. I've seen a number of them after attending WPG tests for over 25 years. The drahthaar I have now meets my expectations for a hunting dog; loves to retrieve, smart, and has a harsh, dense coat. But he isn't a candidate for improving the breed. Why? Because his conformation is lacking. He isn't square, his rear legs look like they were grafted on rather than formed normally, his tail is set extremely low, head is very small and overall he lacks substance. He's the only dog I've ever had that pees on his front legs, which should be difficult if not impossible with good conformation. Why am I satisfied with this dog? Because the two drahts I had before him weren't good hunters, and I would never breed him.

My point is that having a dog that hunts well doesn't necessarily mean that it is a candidate for improving the breed. It takes good dogs to simply maintain a breed. It takes exceptional ones to improve it.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:25 am

The BWPG and WPG are two different breeds there shouldn't be any cross contamination from one group to the other.

Most dogs from either group end up in the hands of hunters who are willing to NA test as a requirement of the breeder but aren't interested in going beyond.

Dave: There is a very nice Des Chein female near to you who may eventually turn out some nice pups should a suitable male be located and the owner is inclined to breed. There's a Stonyridge male in Central Oregon. There are possible one or two others in your area. Who knows what the future holds out west.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:56 am

Harvey.

I believe you are talking about Dave's dog. There are no fewer than two other Stoney Ridge dogs that I know of or show up at trainings. I was with a litter from a Stoneyridge female on Sunday. There is Jimmy (french dog) and Rex in California and CK here in Idaho On the sire side. Jimmy and Cora had a litter where I think every pup scored 110 or better. There is a coppershot dog in Idaho Falls at Broken Bow. Broken Bow tests all of their dogs. Even most of the non testing breeders have brought in dogs from the Midwest. I hate to admit it but there is a Southern Fire pup out here that is really good as well that will test this spring. So once again, I think things look good.

Flitecontrol, well it was 30 years ago the program was started and currently, there are 8 dogs approved for breeding. Only one has any American blood in it at all. The other 7 are imports. I have no idea if there is any Korthals Griffon blood in the club anymore. When I started this research I could find the litters tested last year. I cannot seem to find them now. My recollection is it was less than a hand full of litters tested. As Harvey states, they are really different breeds. Of course I don't know one keeps protecting against genetic drift with such a small breeding population. It is this genetic drift problem that plagued griffs. I have pulled genetics on my own dog and the only way she could have had a genetic COI (really a measure of homozygosity) like she did was if there was a genetic bottleneck in the American dogs.

I do not think it is an accident that when Joan gets out of the breeding, that the Griffon's scores started to go up. I am also not suprised that the American bred dogs contribute little to the current Bohemian WPG breeding population either.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:21 am

Yea, Dave has the Stonyridge male. Jim has the latest Des Chein female and another dog out of Des Chein Fern. I saw the Fern pup when it arrived in Idaho but not as an adult. All these dogs have the pedigree behind them. Have not heard of Broken Bow. Would the Stonyridge female be Frank's dog?
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:55 pm

orhunter wrote:The BWPG and WPG are two different breeds there shouldn't be any cross contamination from one group to the other.


Contamination rather than crossbreeding? Hmmmmmm. In the WPGCA breeding program, initially, dogs imported from Czechoslovakia (referred to as Fouseks) were bred with the best WPC available to the club. So there is still some WPG segment in the dogs' genetic makeup. As more dogs were imported, the percentge of WPG genes became less and less and the Fousek/Bohemian more and more. The imported dogs and their crossbred offspring tended to do better in tests than the dogs with no foreign blood. A few years into the breeding program, a comparison of test results from before and after the Fousek injection was made. The scores noticeably improved as the percentage of Fousek blood increased, which I think speaks for itself.

I like to think of myself as a somewhat unbiased reporter of events. I haven't been a member of the WPGCA/Bohemian club for over a decade, don't own a WPG, and never will again. As stated earlier, there are a number of good WPG from a hunting standpoint. Are there enough exceptional ones to standardize/improve the breed as far as coat, size, temperament, cooperation, etc., are concerned? I doubt it, because dogs like that couldn't be found among the dogs whose owners belonged to the national breed club at the time.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:48 pm

orhunter wrote:Yea, Dave has the Stonyridge male. Jim has the latest Des Chein female and another dog out of Des Chein Fern. I saw the Fern pup when it arrived in Idaho but not as an adult. All these dogs have the pedigree behind them. Have not heard of Broken Bow. Would the Stonyridge female be Frank's dog?


One of the Stoneyridge females is Frank's. The other is owned by a chapter member. I think there is one more, but I cant remember the pups exact lineage.

Who is Jim? I dont remember a des chain dog at training days, but I also get busy and cant check every dog.



Flight control, we all have bias. I feel the fact I wasnt around at the time lets me look at scores and evidence. Plus I came to this conclusion after reading her book on the breed. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby SwitchGrassWPG » Tue Apr 09, 2019 5:38 pm

Here's a few more stats...
NA had an 84% success rate (prize earned)
51% Prize I, 26% Prize II, 23% Prize III
Lowest avg component was Tracking at 3.1
Highest was Nose at 3.9.
Avg age was 11.5 months
Avg score was 100.6

UPT had a 54 % success rate
57% Prize II, 43% Prize III
Lowest avg component Water Search and Steadiness at 2.2
Highest were Nose and Search at 4
Avg age was 2.5 yrs
Avg score was 143.7

UT had a 70% success rate
30% Prize I, 42% Prize II, 28% Prize III
Lowest components were Duck Search and Field Steadiness at 2.9
Highest Nose and Steadiness total at 4
Avg age was 3 yrs, 10 mos
Avg Score was 179.6

Invitational had 12.5% success rate
Lowest components were Double Mark and Cooperation at 2.8
Highest nose and Pointing at 4
Avg age was 4 yrs. 11 mos.
Avg score was 176.1
The only thing worse than a bad dog, is no dog at all...
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:01 pm

From MD's stats: I didn't see the total number of dogs that ran the NA listed. Is it 281? (371minus 90) - 90 being the totals of those that ran in the VC,UT, and UPT ?

If so, 68% (168/281) scoring 105 in NA seems like a really good number! For instance, I know of a large program from another breed who says that the average score of their pups' NA scores is 107. And another kennel says their average is 105.

Somebody's worked out the average NA score and standard deviation for each breed but of course that number would be only part of the equation.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:56 pm

Bruce,

Since I was doing this by hand, I did not count NA.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:08 pm

Meridiandave wrote:Flight control, we all have bias. I feel the fact I wasnt around at the time lets me look at scores and evidence. Plus I came to this conclusion after reading her book on the breed. We will just have to agree to disagree on that one.


I agree. But wouldn't the test scores from the "purebred' WPGs pre outcrossing, the crossbred dogs, and the pure Fousek/Bohemian dogs be germane? Joan Bailey's book? Which one?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Meridiandave » Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:23 pm

Flitecontrol. Griffon Gun Dog Supreme. It is a history of the breed. It also includes the decision to outcross and the scores in the appendix.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby orhunter » Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:10 pm

Joan's book is so old it has no relevance to modern times or dogs. It's still a great read with endless reference material.

Flitecontrol: If you haven't read it you really need to so you have an understanding of where some of us are coming from. I'm sure the past ten years have had a huge impact on the overall success of the club. The first ten years accomplished almost nothing.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby Mountainhunter76 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:03 am

Another Stonyridge Griff should be on it's way to Eastern Washington in a couple months if the litters all go well. I am on a list with John for one of his pups.
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Re: State of the breed WPG. NAVHDA scores

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:35 am

I have an autographed copy of the limited edition of the book with a note from Joan. My first griffon, Cacei, is on pages 158 and 160. Joan didn't get all the details of Cacei's pheasnt track story quite right. The previous dog couldn't locate it's pheasant, and they released another for my dog, apparently not far from where the first bird was released. The judge showed us where the pheasant was released and told me it ran about 10 feet and made a 90 degree turn to the left. When released, Cacei took off like a shot. But he didn't turn left, he kept going straight ahead. As this was my first test, I was concerned and asked the head judge, Joe Nadeker, if he wanted me to call him back. He replied "Not yet." Several minutes later, he came back with the live pheasant in his mouth. I was immensely proud and relieved at the same time! Cacei was the last dog to do the pheasant track, and after his "official" retrieve was over, I asked the judges if we could try and find "his" pheasant. They told me to go for it. He tracked it several hundred yards, but eventually it left the grounds where the test was held and we didn't have permission to be, so I had to call him off. Ed Bailey was the judge that awarded Cacei a 4H in search that day, the first the WPGCA had ever given. At lunch, Joe offered me $1,000 for Cacei, which was about four times what I paid for him, and a lot of money in those days. I'm not sure if that was just a test for me, but I told him I was going to keep Cacei.

Cacei was a great hunting dog, and I could fill pages here about some of the exceptional things he accomplished during his too brief life. But he's also a good example of why superior hunters aren't necessarily able to improve the breed. He was only bred once, and while some of the pups did ok in NA, several didn't. None of them were exceptional. Also, while it was unknown at the time he was bred, there was a strong link to torsion in his line. At age five, Cacei developed torsion not once, but twice, and died due to an inept vet's misdiagnosis the second time. Five of the eight in that litter died before the age of six, and torsion was confirmed in three of the five. The dam of the litter died while the owners were on vacation and a neighbor was looking after the dogs. Neighbor came over one day and the bitch was already dead and bloated. A necropsy wasn't performed, but in hindsight, the owner suspected torsion.

The book provides the rationale for the Fousek outcrossing, and has a lot of pictures and history. I remember many of the dogs pictured. Looking at them, which I haven't done in years, reminds me of the lack of standardization in the WPG.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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