American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby crackerd » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:40 am

AverageGuy wrote:I have read the Stichelhaar is basically extinct so who knows. Given the history of mixing these breeds it would seem the lines between them may not be as bright as some claim.


Don't fret or get dispirited, AverageGuy - there's always the the possibility of a Sticheldoodle down the road to reinvigorate breed cerebral candlepower!

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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby JONOV » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:16 am

AverageGuy wrote:I have read the Stichelhaar is basically extinct so who knows. Given the history of mixing these breeds it would seem the lines between them may not be as bright as some claim.

Yeah...I follow their instagram and facebook page (VDSt) and they appear an active but very small club. The dogs look like pictures of CF's that I've seen, and both of those look like GWP's/DD's on the hairier side, though (and this is only from pictures so who really knows) they both look taller/leggier than your average Griffon.
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby JONOV » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:36 am

I'm going to be a bit of a Richard here and make fun of a couple of camps. Sorry, I really couldn't resist.

The Epagneul Breton Camp allows hipster pipe smoking hunters to look down their nose over their glass of New England Double IPA and expound about how its a "different breed" and "The Europeans, they have a much better handle on what it should be, The Americans Ruin Everything as soon as it hits our shores." Such attitudes used to be the exclusive purview of the VDD crowd, but the toxic masculinity exhibited on the Drahthaaraddiction Facebook page turned off your average modern EB buyer.

:multi:

Convince me I'm wrong.

Seriously though, the one's that I've met I've liked the personality a bit more on the French variety, but I'm not convinced its a separate breed anymore than the wide variations one can see in so many other breeds.
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby Highlander » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:00 pm

Thanks for the information. I was aware of the cross back to the pointer by the mother German club of the PP
And the cross done by the griffon folks, as well as the cross done using the English Setter to bring the Irish Red Setter back to strength as a hunter in the field, but I wasn’t aware of the DK being used by the DL folks. I assume they wanted more run?


I honestly don't know why they decided to breed DK to LG, but I think there must have been some genetic dead-end within the breed. DK/GSP is larger breed, with many regional types, compare to LG.
As for PPs and pointers, I listened to this podcast, and the guy, Bob, who apparently is a well known and respected PP breeder says that in Germany they have bred pointers to PP. To my knowledge they have done that on a few occasions.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/the-hu ... e/53654645
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby ANick » Wed Jan 23, 2019 2:45 am

Highlander wrote:
<< snips>>

I honestly don't know why they decided to breed DK to LG, but I think there must have been some genetic dead-end within the breed. DK/GSP is larger breed, with many regional types, compare to LG.
As for PPs and pointers, I listened to this podcast, and the guy, Bob, who apparently is a well known and respected PP breeder says that in Germany they have bred pointers to PP. To my knowledge they have done that on a few occasions.
<snipped the link>


Highlander,
When you typed 'LG' up above, were you intending to type DL (Deutsch Langhaar)?? I wasn't sure if that was the intent or not..
The stated reasons for the DL cross (see the link in my post above) to the DK was given as an experimental attempt to get a bit more diversity in the bloodlines BUT with some pretty well documented plans for testing and final approvals. I won't claim great connections for original source material or meeting notes, but from the article it appears that they were focused on the diversity, or at least I didn't pick up an intent for a change in performance.

The choice of the DK isn't too obvious, but I do have some guesses. The DK tests under the JGHV, if 'personalized' for the DK.
A) I'd really doubt that they would consider reaching for a breed that was not so tested consistently, or didn't have 'Deutsch' somewhere in the name.
B) There are two breeds that run very close with the DL for size in the breed standards, the DK and the DD. In some ways the DD is very much kindred with the DL regarding the standards, arguably the closest fit.
C) Furnishings would NOT be a desired addition to a DL. Also von Hildebrandt testing could become quite unwelcome. (I may have spelled that right..?)

That's my guess at it though.

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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby Highlander » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:51 pm

When you typed 'LG' up above, were you intending to type DL (Deutsch Langhaar)?? I wasn't sure if that was the intent or not..
The stated reasons for the DL cross (see the link in my post above) to the DK was given as an experimental attempt to get a bit more diversity in the bloodlines BUT with some pretty well documented plans for testing and final approvals. I won't claim great connections for original source material or meeting notes, but from the article it appears that they were focused on the diversity, or at least I didn't pick up an intent for a change in performance.

The choice of the DK isn't too obvious, but I do have some guesses. The DK tests under the JGHV, if 'personalized' for the DK.
A) I'd really doubt that they would consider reaching for a breed that was not so tested consistently, or didn't have 'Deutsch' somewhere in the name.
B) There are two breeds that run very close with the DL for size in the breed standards, the DK and the DD. In some ways the DD is very much kindred with the DL regarding the standards, arguably the closest fit.
C) Furnishings would NOT be a desired addition to a DL. Also von Hildebrandt testing could become quite unwelcome. (I may have spelled that right..?)


Thanks Nick. Yes, I meat DL instead of LG.
It's great that your found the information I was referring to. I found out about this a few years back on some German kennel's website. The guys was arguing that DK genes are superior over the LG. I was using the translator and did not quite get what was his point.

I actually agree on those three points you are making. The testing system and requirement for DD, DL and DK are very similar. I did not find the reason why they went with DK. Maybe they have more "uplandish" nature? :mrgreen:
I would dear to say that there is more difference between ES and IS than there between DK and DD, in terms of hunting requirement and performanc.

p.s. I googled DL and found there are some good dogs in America. Are they good in hot, southern climate like Colorado, Arizona or even eastern Montana? For some reason I feel that they are more "forest" dogs rather than open and vast places. This is just an assumption.
Any thoughts?
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby ANick » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:12 pm

Highlander,
There are a surprising number of DLs in some warm places. The current 'map' includes, California, Nevada, Idaho, Montana, Arizona, I think New Mexico, Texas, Louisiana, South Carolina, Colorado, Nebraska, South Dakota, and some in Iowa and Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont and of course the current population center of Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan. Oh, and Washington (state). The owners of the dam and grand dam of mine hit up Montana to chase sharpies last Fall before the November breed club meeting. Pictures were pretty amazing, with the girls way out there as little dots. Not bad for a couple of Wisconsin pups. :)

We're seeing some nice dogs coming out of the domestic bred lines but the imports continue to come in and train up to test. If all goes well, I'll have a pup coming later this Spring. Should be fun. Or at least not dull. :)

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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby Meridiandave » Mon Feb 04, 2019 11:52 pm

Interesting thread. Didn't expect this to be a WPG or DL thread.

Back to the original question. Whether or not a breed registry sees these as two different breeds, I do. I have hunted with 7 French Britts in the last two years. I really like them as a dog. From the structure of their muzzle to coloration and size they are different from American Brittanies.

Interesting discussion on the WPG. There was some comments on whether or not the French crossed Griff's. The specific dog some claim that Tan point originated from is Under de Massacre (Under). Virtually every American dog has Under in their pedigree. Most dogs are out 9 to 10 generations. The percentage of relatedness to my dog is less than 1/2 a percent. I calculated it out. Barbara Young (Herrenhuesen) is a big pripenent of NOT having "hybrid" dogs. At this point, I am not sure what is gained from that position.

Regardless of whether or not the French outcrossed to a different breed, I think there can be no doubt that French blood added some juice to the breed. It is hard to find a VC that doesn't have significant French blood in it. There is dogs being imported to this day from both France and Germany. They continue to contribute to the gene pool here.

There are many fine griffs that can still be obtained today. More Griff's are being registered and tested than ever before in NAVHDA. Plenty are doing well. Do your homework and you can get a solid or even exceptional Griff.
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby ANick » Wed Apr 17, 2019 1:34 am

Meridiandave wrote:Interesting thread. Didn't expect this to be a WPG or DL thread.

Back to the original question. Whether or not a breed registry sees these as two different breeds, I do. I have hunted with 7 French Britts in the last two years. I really like them as a dog. From the structure of their muzzle to coloration and size they are different from American Brittanies.

Interesting discussion on the WPG. There was some comments on whether or not the French crossed Griff's. The specific dog some claim that Tan point originated from is Under de Massacre (Under). Virtually every American dog has Under in their pedigree. Most dogs are out 9 to 10 generations. The percentage of relatedness to my dog is less than 1/2 a percent. I calculated it out. Barbara Young (Herrenhuesen) is a big pripenent of NOT having "hybrid" dogs. At this point, I am not sure what is gained from that position.

Regardless of whether or not the French outcrossed to a different breed, I think there can be no doubt that French blood added some juice to the breed. It is hard to find a VC that doesn't have significant French blood in it. There is dogs being imported to this day from both France and Germany. They continue to contribute to the gene pool here.

There are many fine griffs that can still be obtained today. More Griff's are being registered and tested than ever before in NAVHDA. Plenty are doing well. Do your homework and you can get a solid or even exceptional Griff.



Meridiandave,

Valid point on the wandering off topic, apologies for adding the bits on the DL .. I promise to stick to the Britanny topic for the rest of the thread. Apologies to the op. :)

Regarding the French and American Britanny question. As a breed, international convention places the country of origin as the one that makes the Standards.. as in the FCI.

Is there any breed that has two listings (different nationalities) for what once a single breed? Kinda curious, just asking.

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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby orhunter » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:16 am

Nick: The Stichelhaar in Germany, the Cesky Fousek in The Czech Republic, the Bohemian Wirehaired Pointing Griffon in the US. 3 countries, three names.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
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Re: American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

Postby JTracyII » Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:55 pm

ANick wrote:
Meridiandave wrote:Interesting thread. Didn't expect this to be a WPG or DL thread.

Back to the original question. Whether or not a breed registry sees these as two different breeds, I do. I have hunted with 7 French Britts in the last two years. I really like them as a dog. From the structure of their muzzle to coloration and size they are different from American Brittanies.

Interesting discussion on the WPG. There was some comments on whether or not the French crossed Griff's. The specific dog some claim that Tan point originated from is Under de Massacre (Under). Virtually every American dog has Under in their pedigree. Most dogs are out 9 to 10 generations. The percentage of relatedness to my dog is less than 1/2 a percent. I calculated it out. Barbara Young (Herrenhuesen) is a big pripenent of NOT having "hybrid" dogs. At this point, I am not sure what is gained from that position.

Regardless of whether or not the French outcrossed to a different breed, I think there can be no doubt that French blood added some juice to the breed. It is hard to find a VC that doesn't have significant French blood in it. There is dogs being imported to this day from both France and Germany. They continue to contribute to the gene pool here.

There are many fine griffs that can still be obtained today. More Griff's are being registered and tested than ever before in NAVHDA. Plenty are doing well. Do your homework and you can get a solid or even exceptional Griff.



Meridiandave,

Valid point on the wandering off topic, apologies for adding the bits on the DL .. I promise to stick to the Britanny topic for the rest of the thread. Apologies to the op. :)

Regarding the French and American Britanny question. As a breed, international convention places the country of origin as the one that makes the Standards.. as in the FCI.

Is there any breed that has two listings (different nationalities) for what once a single breed? Kinda curious, just asking.

Nick


No worries about floating off topic. I have learned that it is the threads that take their own course that are often the most interesting and informative.
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