American Brittany-The First American Pointing Dog!!

[Highlander]

Guys I am using my ipad to type the text up. There are some misspelled words.

[orhunter]

Highlander: Documentation doesn’t exist, that was the plan. It was done with one thing in mind, winning. Why would anyone admit they cheated?

JTracy: Yes, AKC wasn’t too concerned with it for the simple fact, if they made it an issue, it would require a lot of members to have their breeding stock genetically tested and removed from the gene pool. They wanted to keep the members happy and didn’t give a hoot about the dogs. I’m sure Jay Hoth can go into more detail than I can but that’s the short version. I bought a pup with potential to be a carrier but was later cleared. I know of one Griff that was an affected dog and used for breeding several times before tan point became an issue. His mama was a French dog and is featured in many good pedigrees.

[JTracyII]

Highlander: Documentation doesn’t exist, that was the plan. It was done with one thing in mind, winning. Why would anyone admit they cheated?

JTracy: Yes, AKC wasn’t too concerned with it for the simple fact, if they made it an issue, it would require a lot of members to have their breeding stock genetically tested and removed from the gene pool. They wanted to keep the members happy and didn’t give a hoot about the dogs. I’m sure Jay Hoth can go into more detail than I can but that’s the short version. I bought a pup with potential to be a carrier but was later cleared. I know of one Griff that was an affected dog and used for breeding several times before tan point became an issue. His mama was a French dog and is featured in many good pedigrees.

It sounds like the AKC was in a difficult spot with the tan point dilemma, and that you and many others disagree with their decision. What about a dog that has one of these tan point carriers in its pedigree a 4-5 generations back, but they themselves are clear and not carriers. Let’s assume this WPG potential stud was in the top 5% of the the breed in all hunting attributes (Nose, search, huge water love and significant prey drive, range, tracking etc.) and had superb conformation. Should it be bred or be culled? No right or wrong to me. Good men can land on both sides of this question. Others are welcome to give their thoughts too.

[orhunter]

JTracy: Anyone in their right mind would breed that dog.... many times. Just have to be careful about breeding to untested dogs.

Here’s where it gets tricky. Crossbreeding brings with it more genes than those producing tan point. If tan point can be weeded out by not breeding any dog with it in its pedigree, those extra genes have a better chance of not being passed on also. There are other indicators of crossbreeding besides tan point, like orange coats and probably other stuff if one looks closely. The key here is having dogs that look right. They gotta look true to breed.

AKC’s other position was, nobody knows what Korthals used to make the Griff and the genes that produce tan point and other stuff, are just remnants of his breeding program. It doesn’t matter the source in the long run, what matters is to breed them out so the dogs look, “true to breed.” The definition of a breed is that the offspring look like the parents, generation after generation. When an anomaly appears it could be the result of a mutation or recessive genes but they should be treated the same. Don’t breed affected animals.

[ANick]

<... snipped for brevity .. >

There only two cases where officially cross-breeding took place. One is with pudelpoint, which has to be bred to an "old" type of English pointer ones in the while and I think all this is sanctioned by the mother club.
And the second one was the when the mother club of langhaars, in Germany, sanctioned a cross breed with a highly decorated brown DK. This was some genetic study I believe. The pups were monitored and only few of the went back to the breeding.

In case anyone is interested, a link to the story on the Deutsch Langhaar out-cross experiment can be found here: https://www.sueddeutscher-club-langhaar ... chtversuch (Note: If you are using Chrome, webpage translation is available although you will find it makes for challenging reading. Of course, if you can read German.. it doth not apply. )

Nick

[AverageGuy]

The French Brittanys I have been around in the US stayed busy but were the opposite of fast big running dogs. Close working dogs that stayed busy is how I would describe the ones I have seen.

In regards to the search style favored in NAVHDA, I see the general case as being what JT3 described. If the dog covers the field reasonably it will do ok. But I have, (thankfully) also seen Judges appropriately score a slow plodding dog down in the Search and Desire to Work areas. And I have seen dogs which ran bigger and faster get scored well in the Search area for the most part as long as they did not straight line over the horizon and pay no heed to their handler as they did so.

Breed fights are as common as dirt. While many perceive them to be a much bigger problem than they are, I think the only real instances of problems occur when gene pools dwindle down to a remaining few.

In large robust breeds there is plenty of room for experimentation and those who do proper due diligence within those breeds find what they want. GSP, ES and Brittanys are 3 easy examples of that. GWPs show some of the same, with dogs that are DDs by another name and registry, those in between and those which are much smaller lighter built and colored dogs which can compete in a FT.

In those larger gene pool breeds people find what they want.

But when a breed has dwindled down to a precious few strong performers, and is loosing its type and performance, things get alot more difficult as the need for revival through outcrossing becomes necessary. If I were involved in a breed such as that, performance and utility in conformation and coat would be my guideposts. If outcrossing would better that, I would do it and be open about it when I did. Every good breed we enjoy today was on that path at some time.

[flitecontrol]

But when a breed has dwindled down to a precious few strong performers, and is loosing its type and performance, things get alot more difficult as the need for revival through outcrossing becomes necessary. If I were involved in a breed such as that, performance and utility in conformation and coat would be my guideposts. If outcrossing would better that, I would do it and be open about it when I did. Every good breed we enjoy today was on that path at some time.

While it was unpopular with those who didn't acknowledge the need, that is exactly why the WPGCA decided they needed to outcross, and it was done openly. Once the breed was improved, who would consider going back to breeding to the offspring of dogs that weren't good candidates for improving the breed in the first place?

[orhunter]

I think there’s some confusion over the word, outcrossing. It is not the same as cross breeding.

Another thing about Tan Point. It isn’t confined to the Griffon. I’ve got photos of GSP’s that show the trait and have seen examples in other breeds. I think there are photos on AKC website but has been years since I looked. Might be gone or it was somewhere else?

[AverageGuy]

I think there’s some confusion over the word, outcrossing. It is not the same as cross breeding.

Yes I understand both terms and that would somewhat go the point. If a CF is more akin to a European line of the same breed then it is an outcross. If it is different enough to truly be a different breed it is a crossbreeding. Not an issue for me either way.

[orhunter]

The CF is said to be a regional version of the Stichelhaar. Some lines of CF have a bit of WPG introduced and this is what attracted the WPGCA to them. Using a crossbreed to cross breed.

[AverageGuy]

I have read the Stichelhaar is basically extinct so who knows. Given the history of mixing these breeds it would seem the lines between them may not be as bright as some claim.

[JTracyII]

JTracy: Anyone in their right mind would breed that dog.... many times. Just have to be careful about breeding to untested dogs.

Here’s where it gets tricky. Crossbreeding brings with it more genes than those producing tan point. If tan point can be weeded out by not breeding any dog with it in its pedigree, those extra genes have a better chance of not being passed on also. There are other indicators of crossbreeding besides tan point, like orange coats and probably other stuff if one looks closely. The key here is having dogs that look right. They gotta look true to breed.

That is pretty much where I stand too.

[JTracyII]

Navhda isn’t really concerned with speed as long as the dog searches the terrain well and shows strong desire. It would be nice if some indication of range or speed was indicated on the scoring sheet for each dog; however, in my experience many dogs range a lot different in a short test than when they have hunted for over an hour on a several hour day afield anyway, so maybe it wouldn’t really be extremely useful.

Are the French WPG’s known for more speed than from other countries given the French’s desire for speed?

The evaluation and grading of the speed is absent from the German system as well. It falls under the "search" category and carries more of a broad definition as opposed to other FCI test systems. At least is what I remember.
The "style" according the FCI rules is an innate and inherited quality of a breed, which evolved throughout the history and has been strengthened by the breeders. For example the English setter's performance should resemble a creeping she-lion that just saw a pray and slowly moving towards it. When he is galloping it should more resemble "sliding" than running. The point should be on the ground laying with head up in the air.
Now, I know the people say that who cares as long as the dog finds a bird, but their (the FCI) arguments are;
A) The dog that demonstrate the best performances of gallop and the overall style tend save more energy and hunt longer.
B) The most of the time, especially in vast open areas, we basically see dog's running. At least they should be enjoyable to watch.
I am not arguing whether this position is correct or not. That's what they say.

I had a handful of texts and illustrations describing all the breeds working standards, but unfortunately I lost them

As for your question, generally they are faster than the DDs from Germany. This is even more true with DD's in Italy.
Although there are some breeders affiliated with the German systems and take the German tests. DD's are more popular in countries of Scandinavia and German speaking countries and some others east of Germany. That region prefers more versatile type of dogs, that's why the most of rough coat dogs come that place. It's just hunting culture.
In the case of DK they look different than DK's Germany. They are almost always, at least 80% of them, full brown color and look lighter. I have not payed much attention to DD's look as much as I am more into GSP/DK camp.

As for whether in France they cheated with WGP. I don't know, but I am highly skeptical unless I see the actual document and the case. As I have said over there the things are more top-down. This case would have qualified as a fraud with severe consequence. Of course there are some shitty dogs too.
They way the "speed up" this or that breed has got more with inside breed selection. Let say if DK A is faster than a DK B, it is highly likely that the A will be bred. Of course other qualities are take in the account too.

There only two cases where officially cross-breeding took place. One is with pudelpoint, which has to be bred to an "old" type of English pointer ones in the while and I think all this is sanctioned by the mother club.
And the second one was the when the mother club of langhaars, in Germany, sanctioned a cross breed with a highly decorated brown DK. This was some genetic study I believe. The pups were monitored and only few of the went back to the breeding.

Thanks for the information. I was aware of the cross back to the pointer by the mother German club of the PP
And the cross done by the griffon folks, as well as the cross done using the English Setter to bring the Irish Red Setter back to strength as a hunter in the field, but I wasn’t aware of the DK being used by the DL folks. I assume they wanted more run?

[JTracyII]

As I just mentioned in my previous post, the Red Setter folks crossed back to the English Setter to bring the Irish Red Setter back to the field. I guess this crossing back to a foundation breed or something similar has been done quite a bit when you start looking around. I don’t have a problem with it if there is good reason for doing it and it’s done openly and honestly.

[JONOV]

I think there’s some confusion over the word, outcrossing. It is not the same as cross breeding.

Another thing about Tan Point. It isn’t confined to the Griffon. I’ve got photos of GSP’s that show the trait and have seen examples in other breeds. I think there are photos on AKC website but has been years since I looked. Might be gone or it was somewhere else?

There’s a GSP in my neighborhood with it. A year or so ago a DD breeder that bred many litters a year had a pup with it for sale with whatever the VDD equivalent of limited registration is. The VDD apparently accepts it as a natural genetic occurrence.