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orhunter wrote:Highlander: Documentation doesn’t exist, that was the plan. It was done with one thing in mind, winning. Why would anyone admit they cheated?
JTracy: Yes, AKC wasn’t too concerned with it for the simple fact, if they made it an issue, it would require a lot of members to have their breeding stock genetically tested and removed from the gene pool. They wanted to keep the members happy and didn’t give a hoot about the dogs. I’m sure Jay Hoth can go into more detail than I can but that’s the short version. I bought a pup with potential to be a carrier but was later cleared. I know of one Griff that was an affected dog and used for breeding several times before tan point became an issue. His mama was a French dog and is featured in many good pedigrees.
Highlander wrote:JTracyII wrote: <... snipped for brevity .. >
There only two cases where officially cross-breeding took place. One is with pudelpoint, which has to be bred to an "old" type of English pointer ones in the while and I think all this is sanctioned by the mother club.
And the second one was the when the mother club of langhaars, in Germany, sanctioned a cross breed with a highly decorated brown DK. This was some genetic study I believe. The pups were monitored and only few of the went back to the breeding.
AverageGuy wrote:But when a breed has dwindled down to a precious few strong performers, and is loosing its type and performance, things get alot more difficult as the need for revival through outcrossing becomes necessary. If I were involved in a breed such as that, performance and utility in conformation and coat would be my guideposts. If outcrossing would better that, I would do it and be open about it when I did. Every good breed we enjoy today was on that path at some time.
orhunter wrote:I think there’s some confusion over the word, outcrossing. It is not the same as cross breeding.
orhunter wrote:JTracy: Anyone in their right mind would breed that dog.... many times. Just have to be careful about breeding to untested dogs.
Here’s where it gets tricky. Crossbreeding brings with it more genes than those producing tan point. If tan point can be weeded out by not breeding any dog with it in its pedigree, those extra genes have a better chance of not being passed on also. There are other indicators of crossbreeding besides tan point, like orange coats and probably other stuff if one looks closely. The key here is having dogs that look right. They gotta look true to breed.
Highlander wrote:JTracyII wrote:Navhda isn’t really concerned with speed as long as the dog searches the terrain well and shows strong desire. It would be nice if some indication of range or speed was indicated on the scoring sheet for each dog; however, in my experience many dogs range a lot different in a short test than when they have hunted for over an hour on a several hour day afield anyway, so maybe it wouldn’t really be extremely useful.
Are the French WPG’s known for more speed than from other countries given the French’s desire for speed?
The evaluation and grading of the speed is absent from the German system as well. It falls under the "search" category and carries more of a broad definition as opposed to other FCI test systems. At least is what I remember.
The "style" according the FCI rules is an innate and inherited quality of a breed, which evolved throughout the history and has been strengthened by the breeders. For example the English setter's performance should resemble a creeping she-lion that just saw a pray and slowly moving towards it. When he is galloping it should more resemble "sliding" than running. The point should be on the ground laying with head up in the air.
Now, I know the people say that who cares as long as the dog finds a bird, but their (the FCI) arguments are;
A) The dog that demonstrate the best performances of gallop and the overall style tend save more energy and hunt longer.
B) The most of the time, especially in vast open areas, we basically see dog's running. At least they should be enjoyable to watch.
I am not arguing whether this position is correct or not. That's what they say.
I had a handful of texts and illustrations describing all the breeds working standards, but unfortunately I lost them
As for your question, generally they are faster than the DDs from Germany. This is even more true with DD's in Italy.
Although there are some breeders affiliated with the German systems and take the German tests. DD's are more popular in countries of Scandinavia and German speaking countries and some others east of Germany. That region prefers more versatile type of dogs, that's why the most of rough coat dogs come that place. It's just hunting culture.
In the case of DK they look different than DK's Germany. They are almost always, at least 80% of them, full brown color and look lighter. I have not payed much attention to DD's look as much as I am more into GSP/DK camp.
As for whether in France they cheated with WGP. I don't know, but I am highly skeptical unless I see the actual document and the case. As I have said over there the things are more top-down. This case would have qualified as a fraud with severe consequence. Of course there are some shitty dogs too.
They way the "speed up" this or that breed has got more with inside breed selection. Let say if DK A is faster than a DK B, it is highly likely that the A will be bred. Of course other qualities are take in the account too.
There only two cases where officially cross-breeding took place. One is with pudelpoint, which has to be bred to an "old" type of English pointer ones in the while and I think all this is sanctioned by the mother club.
And the second one was the when the mother club of langhaars, in Germany, sanctioned a cross breed with a highly decorated brown DK. This was some genetic study I believe. The pups were monitored and only few of the went back to the breeding.
orhunter wrote:I think there’s some confusion over the word, outcrossing. It is not the same as cross breeding.
Another thing about Tan Point. It isn’t confined to the Griffon. I’ve got photos of GSP’s that show the trait and have seen examples in other breeds. I think there are photos on AKC website but has been years since I looked. Might be gone or it was somewhere else?
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