Now that I am free of the club scene...

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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby ryanr » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:57 pm

So how did your dogs do there?
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:40 pm

Out of 5 HC dogs there,4 titled or, 80%. The 5th, a 10 month old pup, ran a great track but treed the judge and was disqualified. Their normal pass percentage was 15% So after 22 years of testing we showed them what working dogs actually looked like. Odin was the only dog that passed the Master Fur and he was only the 16th dog in 22 years to pass it. Spent years before going to this, basically, social gathering trying to get them to ditch the standardized test method they used and to make it a competition where the dogs competed against each other because that would eventually produce better dogs....like I had. LOL Myself and the Nat'l Breed Club, the ATCA, have butted heads almost from the beginning and that is a lot of years. LOL I would actually love to see SMAbby ditch her club and show them how to breed good dogs.
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby orhunter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:02 pm

"ditch her club and show them how to breed good dogs." Kinda reminds me of the Griff history. It works.
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:58 pm

Harvey, what happened in the griff world? Sounds like better dogs were produced with the club.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby orhunter » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Nope...... Not saying bad dogs but they were, different.
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:05 pm

sorry about that. What I meant was better dogs without the club restrictions.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby SMAbby » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:25 pm

how?
VC Max vom Schutzenknapp VJP 75, HZP190, VGP 303 PI 4H Nose, NA 112, UT 204 Invite 196
Baja vom Wamsbach VJP 64, HZP 169, NA 112
Anka vom Loofkamp VJP 66, HZP 139,HZP 172, NA 112
Krystal Creeks Untamed Spirit ( Abby) NA 93 Prize III UT 200 Prize II
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:56 pm

Abby, the common belief today is study those pedigrees and you can breed good dogs. Pretty much makes anyone with access to titled dogs a breeder. Just isn't true Abby. The fact is, most any dog in the gene pool can be a barn buster. I never bred to a titled dog in my life. I started with two show dogs that had never been in the field and they ended up top dogs. Took my hunting lines and crossed them with straight up protection dogs that had never seen a hunting field in their lives going back many generations and produced winners on both sides of the fence. All the dogs in working breeds have the potential. It isn't the dogs that is the problem. If you have access to a few dogs, you can produce better dogs than any club has. Just takes time and dedication.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:36 am

When club doctrine is inflexible, cannot change to get the desired results, the breed suffers. A club can have all the desire in the world to produce good dogs but if it lacks the insight to correctly judge the failures and won't make the proper adjustments, those lofty goals are never reached. Any breeding program, club or individual, needs to start with the best dogs available, not what you just happen to have. Beating a dead horse if you try. Why go through the motions of selective breeding that will take unknown generations to weed out all the defects when it can be done with the first generation by using good dogs from the start?
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:31 am

If a person does his due diligence and studies pedigrees, the only thing he can judge anything on is titles. Now, that person has a bitch, that he thinks is breed worthy for one reason or another and breeds to the hottest paper tiger. What is the best that will happen? Maybe a couple of good dogs, but, mostly average ones. Now, take a nice confident male of the breed that has no titles and breed the same bitch to him. What are you going to get? Probably a couple of good dogs, but, mostly average ones....the same as the paper tiger. The breed all has the same genetics, they just haven't been managed properly to produce anything consistently. Breeding titled dogs produces as many crap dogs as any other method until you start managing what you are producing.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:17 pm

Good individual dogs mean nothing. Good litters are gold. Breeding a good dog from a crappy litter gets you more crap. Breeding a good dog from a good litter is money in the bank.
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:30 pm

Are you speaking from limited experience....or what you have been told?
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:40 pm

Something like that. I pay a lot of attention to what others are doing and weigh the results.
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:00 pm

Breeding to paper is as good as any other method if you are looking to produce a couple of good dogs. It is like playing the lottery. If you actually are a serious breeder Harvey, the gene pool has to be managed. Scatter breeding to paper manages nothing. I don't have a problem with you or anyone else believing it is the only way to breed, but, it is just a method to produce dogs.....some good.....some not so good. You say you know what you know from listening to others....what if they haven't got a clue either. Bottom line is all breeds have their own genetics....just got to manage them.
Last edited by hicntry on Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Now that I am free of the club scene...

Postby hicntry » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:21 pm

Abby, your foundation stock pretty much means spit because, trust me. you will end up relying on your own future pups for breeding. Actually, I would say get rid of one of the foundation dogs after they have the first litter. That first litter is what you will build on....not the foundation stock. Get rid of the rest. Trick is to pick the most confident of the bunch.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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