FF in 4 Days

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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:42 am

ryanr wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
ryanr wrote:
A lot of experienced gun dog's kill every bird they bring back. Why should they get bit or pummeled by wings? To me, there is NO advantages in getting a bird back alive. Then I have to kill it. So, unless they stop to dine on it, I don't care if it's alive or dead. Does get expensive for training ducks though. :D


I don't care either I was just commenting that I have one dog that is quite hard mouthed and the other isn’t at all and both are actually sound retrievers (as far as bringing back game they're sent for.) My hard-mouthed one is just also a stubborn son of a gun with a possessive streak. He delivers to me but does not present cleanly, turns his head away, etc. He's a helluva a dog for cripples though, very tenacious. My second one brings birds back in the exact condition she finds them and delivers to hand.

She impressed the heck out of me last fall at the end of a test I was volunteering at. I had them both with me and let them out at the end of the day. Both raced out to thr send point and the older one took off on his own duck search. She did too. He got into a duck and she saw him get it and instead of coming for and taking his she just continued on her own away from him. She wanted her own duck. Long story short she got into an extended chase all the way down and across our lake/bog. I lost sight of her and also realized the kayak was already packed up and gone. Some time later I started to see her swimming and crawling over snags, lily pads, etc, with a duck. She comes back right to heel and delivers the duck just as she caught it, alive. Total retrieve distance was over 400 yards. I put the dogs up and let the duck go unharmed.


Neat story Ryan.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jun 08, 2021 12:30 pm

I hunt doves and quail a good bit among many other birds.

I will take a soft mouth dog every time I can get it. Never had a problem wringing a bird's neck and I will take that over a mangled bird every time.

Suggesting it is better for a dog to routinely kill birds sounds like an attempt to put a positive spin on a hard mouth to me.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:25 pm

I don't know, I kinda think every dog is different. I tend to think there's real hard mouth and then some dogs are just smart enough to squeeze just enough to stop a bird from struggling. I had a Labrador that if they didn't struggle, he brought them back alive. If they started flapping or kicking, he squeezed them just enough until they stopped. My older guy now, he's just really hard mouth but if he grabs one that struggles he squeezes their last breath right out. He was known to chomp loud enough you could hear it but not so much anymore. Still hard, just not breaking bones. I don't think it's a coincidence that when I decide I wouldn't test him UT and didn't put the same pressure on him and beat him up over and over regarding his delivery that he chomped less and less.

As long as it's still fit for the table. To me thr greater sin is the dog that loses cripples or live game because it doesn't hold it securely.

Funny story with my younger. On her NA track she pointed then moved in. It looked like she was still pointing so they called me up and said I could go leash her. I get up there and she's half way into the heavier cover and I see her and the pheasant inches in front of her looking like it's trying to run. Then I notice she's just holding the pheasant there by the end of its tail. :D
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 08, 2021 1:41 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I hunt doves and quail a good bit among many other birds.

I will take a soft mouth dog every time I can get it. Never had a problem wringing a bird's neck and I will take that over a mangled bird every time.

Suggesting it is better for a dog to routinely kill birds sounds like an attempt to put a positive spin on a hard mouth to me.


Won't put up with chompers or manglers. A good hunting dog just puts the giant squeeze on them and delivers them dead every time. Except Nipper. She was an old black lab that had retrieved in a thousand birds of all types; my guides used her. She'd get to the bird, grab it by the head and crush the head. She was a great bird dog.

Incidentally, with all the thousands of training and wild birds I've killed, I hate wringing a birds neck. Hated it for over 60 years now.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby AverageGuy » Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:44 pm

I think that if a young dog is killing birds on a regular basis there is a very good chance it is going to get worse over time.

I think suggesting it takes a dog which regularly kills birds to recover a high percentage of cripples is pure BS, because I have had numerous soft mouthed GWPs and they all excelled at recovering cripples and bringing them back as they found them.

Let's review the Thread.

Hillmann has trained more High Point Derby dogs than anyone in History.

The video clip of his accomplishments shows those dogs going on to FC/AFC titles and one HOF title.

Dennis Voigt writes an article which I posted a link to here. He has trained multiple FCs and 3 national champions.

He writes he found many people struggling to properly implement FF despite his best efforts to lead them through it.

He says he found it was extremely seldom that he ever resorted to pinching a dog's ear in the field to make a correction. So rare that he quit putting his pups through an ear pinch based FF program starting in 2009 and went to an ecollar overlay only. He has high praise for Hillmann and his methods.

I posted a link to a video of Hillmann working with a 4.75 month old puppy that goes on to be the 2020 High Point Derby dog. What the pup is doing at that age is impressive and the result of his system of development and training.

There is ample evidence that folks are succeeding with different methods.

People are free to choose their path but those who insist there is only one that works are blinded by their own dogma.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby ryanr » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:21 pm

Sorry, I wasn't intending to suggest it takes a dog that kills birds to make a dog that's great on cripples. I just mentioned it more as his saving grace as a hunting dog because his manner of delivery stinks and annoys me. I definitely wasn't trying to make a correlation between the two things.

Also the whole idea of transitioning (quickly) to e-fetch after ear pinch is so you can make corrections just with the e-collar if need be but should a dog really require it, you still have ear pinch and thr dig knows immediately what it means and how to turn it off.
Last edited by ryanr on Tue Jun 08, 2021 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF in 4 Days

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:26 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I think that if a young dog is killing birds on a regular basis there is a very good chance it is going to get worse over time.

I think suggesting it takes a dog which regularly kills birds to recover a high percentage of cripples is pure BS, because I have had numerous soft mouthed GWPs and they all excelled at recovering cripples and bringing them back as they found them.


First, my experience leads me to believe your first statement is incorrect DEPENDING ON HOW THE BIRD IS KILLED. Suffocating it is perfectly acceptable. There is nothing in any standard saying a dog has to deliver birds alive, only "fit for the table". That's my opinion as well.

Unless I missed it, NOBODY ever said it takes a dog that kills birds to recover cripples.

Thirdly, no one has said FF is the only way, nor has anyone said modified FF is the only way. Depends on the desired end result and DEPENDS ON THE DOG.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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