Breeding

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Breeding

Postby hicntry » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:04 pm

I decided to start a new thread on breeding rather than hijacking SMAbby's thread. Going back to that thread, you may have noticed that the only one defending breeding to titles and paper tigers was a non breeder. No breeders were defending the method. Why? Because most breeders, that have been doing it for any time at all, have bred dogs that had no titles that they knew were good dogs. They know that those pups are just as good. What it comes down to is that the buyers really control the market. The result is that breeders have to title dogs even though non titled dogs may produce better pups. Newbies read all this BS and want to see titled dogs in the immediate background.

As I have stated, I have never bred to a titled dog. A recent video I put up of a dog doing a bang up job on pheasants is a bit over 1/2 hunting lines and the other side is all protection dogs. Another example is a pup that is 1/2 my hunting lines and half east German protection lines. A pup from that cross won an international protection title against the European malinois and GSD's at 18 months old. How is that possible if 50% of the line is hunting dogs?? There is something to think about.
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Re: Breeding

Postby Calvinator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:50 am

It sounds as if the dogs you describe as winning were both out crosses of your line bred dogs?
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Re: Breeding

Postby greg jacobs » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:59 am

With the Internet you can look at dogs all over the US or world. It is sure a good place to "start".
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:55 am

[quote="Calvinator"]It sounds as if the dogs you describe as winning were both out crosses of your line bred dogs?[/quote
In part they were. What I am pointing out is that an untitled protection dog will hunt when crossed with untitled hunting dogs. Hardly seems fair to you breeders when non breeders are setting your standards for you. They are tying your hands by convincing the buying public that they know what it takes to breed good dogs when they never tried it. The reality is that if you can pick a good pup, you can breed good dogs. Having a title just doesn't tell you it is a good choice. It is better than nothing if a person doesn't know a good dog when they see it.
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Re: Breeding

Postby Doc E » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:20 am

I would rather be smart than lucky.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:00 pm

Doc E wrote:I would rather be smart than lucky.
.


I am with you 100% on that Doc.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Breeding

Postby Calvinator » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 pm

hicntry,

With NAVHDA bred dogs, at least you are getting an unbiased evaluation of the dog by the consensus of three judges against a standard. Sure it is for only what they see at the time of the test, but it is better than what can be kennel blindness of the kennel owner. That being said, not every 112 NA performer is necessarily a dog that should be bred. There are two brothers from my kennel that both have UT prizes. One is a prize I, the other a prize II. I prefer the dog that is the prize II for various reasons. So I understand what you are trying to communicate.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:38 pm

What I was trying to tell SMAbby is that it is totally possible to breed great dogs without having great access and having as many dogs as I kept. It is happy hour right now so, when that is over I may elaborate for SMAbby a bit more. When it comes down to it, sure, breeding to titled dogs, can produce a few good dogs, but so can breeding to any solid dog. Some people are happy breeding to titles, others want to breed to the dog.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:44 pm

Had I had a computer through the first 11 years, I would believe everything commonly believed about breeding today. I didn't have one and didn't have all the guidelines to follow given by people that have never bred a dog. I bought a SHOW LINE Airedale. Decades of show line. A friend approached me and he had an offer of a FREE Airedale and said if I paid the shipping I could have free breeding rights. I did because this dog I had hunted 24/7 and was very successful. Yep, this is before I knew I was supposed to study pedigrees. Heck, didn't know how to read one. Ok, bred the two strictly showline Airedales and had a litter. In that FIRST litter I got some nice dogs....one of them was to become known as Winchester.Winchester was the dog all my breeding was based on and he was in the FIRST litter. I kept several males out of that litter. Someone saw the dogs somewhere and had a females they were looking to place. I took her and bred Winchesters brother to her. Got 16 pups and kept one I named Higgins which I bred to my original bitch which was his grandmother. Anyway, I kept three sisters out of that little and bred them to Winchester which constituted my breeding program for many years and produced all the pups at the nationals. That is how scientific breeding is if you can wrap your head around the fact that all average dogs in any breed have the genes......and it really doesn't take much to bring out the best in them if you can pick the best pup in each litter. Years later I brought in the untitled protection dog and crossed him with my hunting lines and they did great in both fields.
Had I had a computer and just bred titled dogs to titled dogs, I might have come out thinking there was some truth to to all the BS.

Pretty obvious how scientific it has to be.
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Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Breeding

Postby STait » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:35 am

Interesting that you say all average dogs have the same genes. I believe that's true for most traits, but in my breed the ability to scent, point, and handle birds is a trait quality that varies in "average" dogs and difficult to pull out sometimes. Some dogs are much better at it AND it runs in certain lines. A person I know in the Netherlands has a statistical study on decades of tested and trialed pointers, and the best bird finding ability runs in like 3 distinct lines. Now, they are very popular lines, as people over the years have found the other "lines" of European pointers just don't have the same quality. They've also figured out that some dogs in these "best bird finder" lines will have "TOO much point", which creates problems because they're noses and brains are too sensitive to bird scent and they point way too far back (too cautious). So, they don't breed to those dogs as much. I know this is a little off track than what you're talking about, but I thought it pertained to the one comment.

I definitely agree with you that if you are good at picking puppies you are way ahead of the curve. But, I think many "breeders" don't have a great idea about that or even have a goal or ideal they are actually striving to achieve. Probably a good reason many depend on titled dogs for their progress. I've found that titles are not enough anyway. Without actually seeing the dog hunt I won't consider breeding to him.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:16 pm

I am not recommending looking for the breed average dog to breed to but it is just as good as breeding to paper. .Picking the best pup is a litter by litter pick. There is no sense in comparing the outcome of different litters. What is being picked is the hardest charging, most confident pup. People are avoiding the best dog because they are too much dog. Why do you have to pick the best of the bunch....because with every breeding the offspring try to slip back to the average on their own. Breeding the stronges, most confident give you a chance at success.....even if you don't care for that pup.

As fare as select traits like nose, the way I would do it is to maybe start with pups out of one of those lines.
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"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Breeding

Postby orhunter » Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:43 pm

It depends on how a person defines average. Average based on top breeders can be quite different than average for the breed or that select group of breeder with no admirable standards.
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Re: Breeding

Postby STait » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:19 pm

hicntry wrote:I am not recommending looking for the breed average dog to breed to but it is just as good as breeding to paper. .Picking the best pup is a litter by litter pick. There is no sense in comparing the outcome of different litters. What is being picked is the hardest charging, most confident pup. People are avoiding the best dog because they are too much dog. Why do you have to pick the best of the bunch....because with every breeding the offspring try to slip back to the average on their own. Breeding the stronges, most confident give you a chance at success.....even if you don't care for that pup.

As fare as select traits like nose, the way I would do it is to maybe start with pups out of one of those lines.


Exactly what I'm doing. Or at least trying to.
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Re: Breeding

Postby STait » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:07 am

Here's one of the pups I'm keeping after using your puppy picking method. 5 weeks old and first bird scent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmpsX-V ... e=youtu.be

And a couple minutes later his first point;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPc2k-W ... e=youtu.be
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Re: Breeding

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:18 am

hicntry is spot on. I do believe that the buyers are controlling the market and that is never a good thing. I think there are to many people getting into the breeding game that think like the buyers, titles are better ! I see people get all excited about a new male that just got a VC and everyone wants to use him....why ?, just because he got a title? But do these breeders ask, how the dog will help in there breeding goals...usually not. They just brag that they have x amount of titles on in their puppies pedigree and charge more for pups.
I have used dogs that have not titled, but have proven them self with their offspring and in the field....shocker !! I know it's hard to believe that I still look at ability in the field as a major part of deciding on a breeding dog.
I will say that it's nice to use the Navhda Na test as one tool to evaluate a litter. We can have a litter tested using a standard anywhere in North America and then can use that to help validate a litter. Is it the only tool to use to validate a litter or to show what direction to go with breeding, NO, but it is a start.


Good topic.....

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