Studding a DD to a GWP?

[BrewsterAndMutt]

I've been looking into "both" breeds and think I will go with a GWP as my first VDog when the time comes but I have a question just out of curiosity. I know you're no long able to dual register a Drahthaar as a GWP, but if you had a registered GWP bitch and a registered Drahthaar would you still be able to stud him to the GWP and register the pups with the AKC and/or NAVDHA?

[Misskiwi67]

Yes, AKC will let you register your VDD dog as an AKC GWP and register pups as AKC. However, if it's known, you will not be allowed to join VDD or register future pups with VDD. The practice is highly frowned upon by those of us who have put the work into making the DD a consistently better versatile hunting dog than the AKC GWP.

You either believe in the VDD testing system and support its development or you don't.

[BrewsterAndMutt]

That's why I said studding. Allow the DD to still be registered with their registry and just use his for a breeding with an AKC dog. Or would that be frowned upon too? Or would the pups not be registrable if dad wasn't AKC registered himself? I've heard of dogs from European countries studding American AKC dogs, I would think it'd be the same.

[blue04]

Based on what I've read on this site, and other sites.... my understanding is that VDD will completely turn their back on you if you have a stud dog that you use as a stud for a GWP female. It reminds me a bit of the concept of "shunning" that Amish folks sometimes talk about.

As MissKiwi implied, they won't let you join the VDD group or register your dog as a DD if you're breeding with non-DD females. I'm not 100% clear on what they will do if you are already a VDD member and your dog is already registered as a DD before you start breeding with GWPs. I presume they will revoke your VDD membership and invalidate your dog's registration. But perhaps someone more involved with VDD can confirm or deny this.

[3drahthaars]

You cannot even have your DD registered in another registry.

Used to be quite simple that if you bred outside of the VDD you were out... couldn't/wouldn't enforce that so they came up with a new rule (like making it a crime to kill someone with a stolen weapon).

I think that to date one, maybe two members of GNA bred into a separate (NAVHDA registry).

If you get a DD with these intentions, get the best one that you can find, because it might be your last unless some DD breeder has 5 or so litters one year and compromises his integrity to sell.

3ds

[Misskiwi67]

I know at least one breeder was denied membership to the club based on breeding practices with another breed.

[BrewsterAndMutt]

Wow, very strict. Interesting though, its not like breeding a male DD to an AKC female is going to contaminate him so he can't breed other DD females afterwards . If anything its simply introducing fresh genes into the GWP population. Good to know though. For now I'm planning on getting GWP when the time comes, I think the DD would be overkill for my needs as of right now and I like the option of being able to compete in AKC and NAVHDA events.

[Misskiwi67]

Why would we want our hard work to benefit another breed?

[Misskiwi67]

Even the OP thinks the DD is "overkill".

If it's too much dog, then at least he's recognized it. There's some very good GWP out there, but a lot of bad coats and show lines too.

[Christie]

(This quote removed by the moderator because it violated the Trolling and Flaming Policy of this forum.)

There's no need for name calling... better to understand the system well enough to explain to others.

JHGV tests are not about pass / fail.

They are not necessarily GUARANTEEs that a dog SHOULD be bred, (although that is what they have become to a certain extent). Nor does a very high score imply that a dog SHOULD be bred.

What the tests do is set a standard to which dogs are evaluated. And, if enough pups are tested out of a litter it indicates a trend in their inherited abilities in that litter. No more no less. And, that trend should be one of many pieces of information that a good breeder uses to evaluate his kennel and make decisions on where to proceed in breeding.

The ignorance of the testing system is on both sides of these discussions... those outside the JGHV system and more critically those inside the system who use tests to support their weaknesses in the understanding of the workings of a real hunting dog. It has become all to easy for the newbies to latch onto the "test system" as a crutch for inexperience.

FWIW some really nice stud dogs have performed poorly and/or failed JGHV tests! Kudos to those who were astute enough to recognize this and do what was right.

In fact, one stud who produced a lot of really nice pups got an HZP score that these days would have been considered almost un-breedable in these days of breed by the numbers... just like some exceptional scoring studs that could not seem to pass much on...

And, my last rant... does anyone really think that the loss of a handful of DDs to the GWP gene pool really amounts to anything considerable? ...

... I personally think that a DD breeder who whelps in August or September putting 7-8mo old pups out to be evaluated in tests along side of 12-18 month old pups does more of a disservice.

But, that is just me looking from the outside in.

3ds

[Misskiwi67]

It's not a loss if they are the same breed with separate registration systems.

It is a loss if the VDD wants to keep the breeds separate. Which apparently they do. Yet it's a battle lost every time a DD is imported into a GWP kennel, and until the AKC decides to close their breed book, it will continue.

[blue04]

It is a loss if the VDD wants to keep the breeds separate.

From an outsider's perspective (mine) this seems weird. I think most folks who aren't involved with either GWPs or DDs would say that there are many more similarities than differences in these two sets of dogs. So much so, that I'd characterize them as two subsets within a single breed.

I agree with VDDs assertion that AKC has created some problems for some GWPs (maybe a lot of them, I don't know). However, I think this is not unique to the GWP/DD debate. AKC Britts and GSPs have similar problems with producing show dogs that I'd never take to the field, yet there are plenty of good hunting dogs available from both of those breeds if you are interested in looking for them.

By the way, what in your opinion is wrong with NAVHDA registered GWPs? I know the NAVHDA tests are different from the German system but my uninformed guess is that there are probably some NAVHDA based kennels that are producing good hunting dogs with consistently good coats.

[Misskiwi67]

I don't have a problem with the registration at all. In fact I'm quite miffed at the hoops required to participate in NAVDHA events. If Vegas passes VGP next week, I'd like to do NAVDHA next year just to keep her skills fresh over the summer. The summer training has really developed her and the difference is awesome. VGP makes HZP feel like a cake walk too!

[3drahthaars]

I don't have a problem with the registration at all. In fact I'm quite miffed at the hoops required to participate in NAVDHA events. If Vegas passes VGP next week, I'd like to do NAVDHA next year just to keep her skills fresh over the summer. The summer training has really developed her and the difference is awesome. VGP makes HZP feel like a cake walk too!

Depends upon your perspective...

... VGP - NO age limit. A seasoned hunting dog in it's 3rd-4th fall can be prepared for VGP in 20 days and pass! The biggest pitfalls in VGP are the random distractions that 90% of handlers don't prepare for (live duck swimming by your dog as it returns with a retrieve from its duck search, etc.)... Heartbreaking!!!

... HZP - pups from 12 - 24 months of age tested against the same standard. There's a LOT of physical, emotional, and intellectual development in a pup between ages 12-18 months!

3ds

[blue04]

I don't have a problem with the registration at all. In fact I'm quite miffed at the hoops required to participate in NAVDHA events.

I don't want to put words in your mouth or misinterpret you, so let me just ask...

Are you suggesting that you'd personally be fine with DD studs breeding GWP females that are registered and tested solely through NAVHDA? (Although VDD clearly wouldn't be ok with it).

Also, I seem to remember some discussion about VDD forbidding NAVHDA registration for DDs and (intentionally or unintentionally) causing DDs to be excluded from NAVHDA testing due to NAVHDA's requirement that all dogs be NAVHDA registered to participate. I gather this really angered a lot of DD owners in North America at the time. How did this finally work out?