New buyer, question on inbreeding

[orhunter]

Hybrid vigor is typically a single generation success. If you breed hybrid to hybrid, the vigor is diminished. This was evident in the first effort in the development of the PP. They had to breed back to the foundation breeds to reestablish that vigor.

[DrahtsundBraats]

Could we define hybrid vigor as it pertains to dogs? I have a feeling the definition is a little cloudy in this discussion.

[KJ]

orhunter,
I can't really provide much input on the success of backbreeding, either in theory or actual practice. I am not opposed to "tinkering" and would certainly not be totally against it if the breeder had good reason for doing it. In all honesty, I have seen a couple of Farris' pudelpointer's that I really liked their hard-charging style, toughness, and relentless water entries. I always ask Ross Stevens if he is taking good care of my stud dog, his PP Kato. I have probably thought about "experimenting" more than I should be admitting on a public forum

Hybrid vigor is typically a single generation success. If you breed hybrid to hybrid, the vigor is diminished. This was evident in the first effort in the development of the PP. They had to breed back to the foundation breeds to reestablish that vigor.

Taking the hybrid back into one of the parent lines usually works OK, or taking the hybrid to another inbred/linebred from a 3rd line can help add hybrid vigor to the breeding, too. But, I agree, your not going to see any additional hybrid vigor boost from a hybrid to hybrid breeding. Of course, this doesn't mean that you can't get great dogs from hybrid (outcross)to hybrid (outcross), especially if they are talented dogs of similar type. A lot of great dogs have been produced the outcrossing, linebreeding and inbreeding - the common thread is starting out with great dogs to begin with.

[orhunter]

I think what has led to the DD/GWP success is the total number of lines available, outcrossing at it's best. I don't think the GSP line was used very much but the number of other lines is sufficient that it doesn't leave anyone wanting or needing for more. The greatest number of lines are PP based but have no idea how that relates to the % of the general population?... Or if anyone actually pays any attention to this?

[Calvinator]

The #1 producing PP stud dog in N America to this date is none other than Cedarwoods First Offense. He is a line bred dog with a COI of about 21%. He is currently 14 years old and can't still hunt. So much for line bred dogs having shorter life spans and not being as healthy as outcrosses. Not only is he a great dog, but he produced great dogs! I own a daughter of his that is now 10, Killbuck's Legendary Luna. She scored 110 NA & 200 UT. There are many of his offspring of similar caliber. Luna produced 2 litters that had a COI of 17%. Both litters were NA breeders award litters.
My stud, Mac, is from a German litter. Practically all of the litters he has sired have had a COI below 3%. The average NA score of his pups is 107, with 50% of pups scoring 112.
Both line breeding and outcrossing are necessary.

[Densa44]

Thanks to misskiwi for the article. What we need is more science in the dog breeding business, less anecdotes.

[SMAbby]

If this is a PP litter than how does the breeding pan out when you have a very small gene pool to work with.

I am asking because there is a litter out there in my world where the Sire and Dam of the litter share the same sire. So, I guess what I am asking is if you say you have 35 breeding bitches in the US and only 10 sires, is it more dangerous to do these kind of breedings? I would think so, but I am not educated enough on this to say for sure.

[CClark]

In my opinion,breeding relatives this close should not be done. For example, if you and your half sister (both of you had the same dad), and your dad had buck teeth it is highly likely all the pups would have buck teeth like Bugs Bunny... In other words ALL genes (good and undesirable) of the common sire are exponentially exposed in a breeding like this and passed on to their pups and future generations. The breeder may not have bred these two dogs on purpose. Whenever a breeder has males and females in his yard sometimes mistakes happen. You should ask him if he intentionally bred these dogs.

[Calvinator]

SMabby,
The PP gene world in the USA is not as small as one might think. It doesn't take much to lower the COI of a tight line breeding. You can go from a COI of 20% to a COI of 3% in one breeding. You must line breed on a certain level to solidify desired traits. Yes some undesired traits can also surface. Deal with those as they show up. Keep the best pups and push forward!

Calvin

[SMAbby]

Thanks Cal.

This may be a big problem with our dogs, we out cross a lot.

The breeding I mention was not an accident. I just view it as very very risky with a very small gene pool. I have wanted to ask the stud owner why he agreed to it, but that normally just starts trouble.. I just want to know the thought process because I know the grandsire had fair hips, but went with a PENN HIP score that was better. I wouldnt be one to want to line breed fair hips.

[3drahthaars]

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons.

First, I've seen the COI abused and perverted and mostly misunderstood.

Second, I've toyed with the idea of making a PP my next pup, several years down the line (for a number of reasons). In fact, I've a few other DD buddies leaning in the same direction for the same reason.

If anyone would/could PM me, I'd really like to discuss what is going on with the breed now in the US and what is going on in Europe. I'd really like a JGHV or FCI dog to run in the tests, mainly because it will keep my judging credentials valid. I've little or no interest in starting a kennel.

Thanks,

3ds

[leo perez]

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons.

First, I've seen the COI abused and perverted and mostly misunderstood.

Second, I've toyed with the idea of making a PP my next pup, several years down the line (for a number of reasons). In fact, I've a few other DD buddies leaning in the same direction for the same reason.

If anyone would/could PM me, I'd really like to discuss what is going on with the breed now in the US and what is going on in Europe. I'd really like a JGHV or FCI dog to run in the tests, mainly because it will keep my judging credentials valid. I've little or no interest in starting a kennel.

Thanks,

3ds

Hi, I am a PP breeder starting out trying to look at source of Info to try to do my best with the Breed this is my email panamof1@aol.com your help will be greatly appreciated, thanks, Leo Perez.

[hicntry]

"First, I've seen the COI abused and perverted and mostly misunderstood.'

I would say mostly misunderstood because it is just a number telling you the %age if inbreeding a dog may/may not have but tells you nothing else of any value regarding breeding.