FF During Season????

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Re: FF During Season????

Postby JONOV » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:56 am

Kiger2 wrote:Jonov,

I ALLWAYS approach giving advice towards the newer trainers. I have given new trainers one more tool to use to make a decision on when they can FF. Should they let pup munch birds all season or can one do both??

I wouldnt for a minute tell someone to do something that would harm the dog or training progress. No one else has stated they have actually done FF during season or given any real issues that would develope. They have only provided speculation. I have actually done it, on more than one occaision.

Do it or dont do it, but dont choose not to because you think something bad will happen. You wont have issues doing it during season that you wouldnt have doing before season.

Once again , the rule is simple, FF at home, dont enforce anything in the field until it has been proofed in the yard.
That sounds so simple, doesn't it? So what do you do in the field? I kinda thought that one of the (other) important tenants of it was no fetch work outside of the FF program til the dog has been through it and thoroughly proofed.

So, take a situation of someone with their dog. The dog has some issues with the retrieve like you describe and needs the FF program.

Do you:

A)Not hunt the dog while FF'ing it, which for many of us (me included) would mean, no more hunting?

B) Let the dog go hunting with you one or two weeks into the program. Keep in mind, a working person has finite days to hunt every year. In my state, its Saturday or whatever weekday I chose to burn vacation with

Personally, I'd put up with sloppy work that recovered my ducks rather than no duck hunting at all.

Kiger2 wrote:Dogs are place oriented . What we do on a training table has to be transferred to the field. We can do 2 or 3 sessions one day, then go hunt the next. Then go back and train. We just do not enforce anything in the field that hasnt been fully proofed in the yard. The dog wont care. He doesnt care because he does not associate training at home with hunting. Its totally different things.

Doesnt matter what stage youre at. Pup will pick up right where he left off. Ive been FF a lab for months. He belongs to my sons sister in law. Its taking months because hes only here when it works for both of us. Due to vacations, hunting, dogs in heat etc..... He has been gone for weeks. When he gets here, I put the collar on and walk towards the table and he runs and jumps up and we pick up right where we left off. Theres nothing confusing. He knows the drill.

I have done this with other dogs.

I'd agree...but don't you think that you're setting yourself up to confuse the issue when you move it to the field, if you do it simultaneously? I think the "Table, then Yard, then Field" logic has some real merit, and that there's a good chance that you can confuse the issue doing both at the same time, force breaking the "right jaw" while the "left jaw" gets to screw around.

Kiger2 wrote:One other really important factor to consider. The parts of FF where the dog may be stressed we dont even use birds. The dog doesnt get Forced on birds until its competent with bucks, bumpers or ??

So your advice is not to do it, even though you have no personal experience trying it. I have experience doing it, Whose giving better advice??

I have experience doing a lot of things that worked well for me, that I'd probably do again in the situation I was in, but that doesn't make it good advice.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:25 pm

Ryan, I thought you didnt read my posts? I think someone that had a dog that was munching birds would find the topic extremely interesting. Guess you didn think of that? Thats OK Im always happy to help you along.
Jonov

Are Im not sure why you having so difficulty comprehending what Ive said? Really you should go back and reread my posts, the answers to your questions are all there.

The reason it sounds so simple is because it is!

Ive got a bit of time so Ill humor you.

You minimize the issue by saying you would accept sloppy work. Sloppy work is one thing, but what if someone listens to you and takes his pup hunting and its MUNCHING birds. Do you let that continue all season? Talk about confusion. The dog gets a bad habit established and then you have to clean it up after the season. Dogs still going to be confused. Are you really saying that that would acceptable?

So in answer A) My advice would be not to hunt until FF is at least complete to the point that bird handling is not an issue. There are many advantages to having the complete program complete, but at a minimum that should be accomplished.

B) So once again, dogs are place oriented. Bad things in the yard do not affect the field.(there may be exceptions if ones abusive). So lets go through this. I use Dobbs so thats what Ill describe, but it doesnt really matter. 1st step is teaching to hold a gloved hand. get pup up on table. Couple of sessions a day usually very well established after a couple of days. So say I start on a wed, friend calls fri night and says lets go hunt ducks. I would say pup isnt ready but if its OK with you lets go. Then you go hunt. When you get home, you pick up right where you left off. By next weekend you have got pup holding different objects pretty well by using the ear pinch. He drops, you pick it while applying pressure and place it back in his mouth. Sat you go hunt, You dont ask the dog to do anything relating to FF. He poorly handles birds or worse, No "hold" command, just let him do his thing. The next week you are out of town for work for two weeks. You come back and pup picks up "Hold" right where you left off.

So you train sun through wed and go chukar hunting for a couple of days. Just dont enforce any FF commands. The goal is to get the dog to hold multiple different objects while walking at heel with out issues. All this time we have not used birds and we have not introduced the commands to the field. So now we start transitioning to birds. This transition is is quick. The dog thoroughly understands the command so its easy to get compliance. So we have pup walking back and forth on the table and hes doing great. You have another chance to hunt so you go. Still dont enforce the hold in the field. Dogs not confused because he only associates the command with training in the yard. Once we have pup where we want him in the yard, carrying birds correctly, we move to different locations. And we train and reinforce the hold command. The dog has been transitioned from the ear pinch to the ecollar corrections should you need them. You work in a few different places until the dog shows he understands that hold means hold no matter where he is.

At this point the dog is ready to be corrected in the field. I highly recommend completing the "Fetch" portion as it gives you the tools to correct at distance.
Theres been no confusion, only stress is the same you would get doing FF outside of season.

As far as relationship with the dog, what could be better to improve the relation and relieve whatever stress may be there than to go hunting?

No one has provided any examples that they have actually have done this the way I prescribed. Its all just people saying it shouldnt be done. They dont say why, no examples of actual problems, just because thats what they have always heard.

No one answered my question. Should my friend get a new dog because his had surgery? Is the dog ruined???

Bruce.
Im not sure how long the accuall sessions have been. I believe he has been here and gone and back again at least 5 times. I can tell you this though, he has had the same number of sessions as he would had had he stayed here. Like I said he picked up right where he left off.
Yes hes a lab. Hes not a hunting dog so I have not worked him on birds. His owner wanted a well behaved dog and wanted the dog to deleiver bumpers and balls to hand.To hand. When hes here, he gets a lession then I go throw bumpers. I never enforced holding the bumpers until I had him ready to transfer from the table to the field. Most of the dogs I have done will start holding the bumpers without any transfer to the field, they just start holding. This dogs big issue which they never told me about was tennis balls. She came over to pick him up one day and I throw a tennis ball for him and he pretty much went to happy land. Hes throwing the ball in the air, spitting it etc... A very entrenched habit. That I hadnt seen. So I told to her to hold him to the standard with the bumper but not the ball. Next time I got him back we corrected the ball issue. Holding a bird would be a non issue for this dog, but if it would make you happy I could do it.

As to other dogs, I trained a lab for a guy but didnt teach the dog to hold geese. He was great with ducks but wouldnt pick up a goose on his first hunt. So I took him back for a couple of days and cleaned that up. Its not hard when they are prepared. I had a friend that took a chocolate lab hunting before she was ready. He really wanted to hunt the dog and kept telling him he should wait. My other friend said he should take the dog. They took the dog and when they got back said it was a disaster. That dog got fixed during season and went on our annual chukar hunt a few weeks later. I have also done a couple of GSP"S during season. Ive FF probably 25 dogs and have helped a bunch of friends do their own.

I mostly started thinking this way because everyone said not to run marks during FF. Well I had been doing it before I was told I shouldnt and had not seen any downsides. Just dont enforce the command until its thoroughly trained.

I dont really care if you think Im an expert. I do have more experience than anyone Im aware of in doing it. If you at it logically, there no reason not to.

Kind of like you though. I dont know anyone that has as much experience in "steering" as you do. To some extent, doesnt that make you the current expert?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:50 pm

Actually Kiger that was somebody else that said they didn't read your posts. But your comment is ironic given that when it comes to reading posts, I think you read what you want to hear and then craft your pontifications based on that.

The topics question has been thoroughly answered with informative perspective from both sides. At this point your posts are only meant to tell everyone else they're wrong, that they're not as good as you, and that no one has as much experience or success doing this than you do. Even your responses to my posts on this subject have been off-base as my reason for stopping FF as hunting season approached had much more to do with the pressure on me doing it at the same time as hunting season than pressure on my dog. And that's something significant for the first time or less experienced FFer that you overlook in your advice.

There's nothing wrong with FF during hunting season if you choose to but there's also nothing wrong with goosing not to or choosing to pause from FF during hunting season because after all the dog will pick up right where it left off, right?
Last edited by ryanr on Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:02 pm

Somewhere along the line in this thread the criteria of a young dog munching birds was added into the equation.

I have hunted all of my puppies extensively through their first seasons, with each of them doing excellent work at recovering whatever kind of bird hit the ground or water, live or dead (doves to maxima honkers). None of those puppies were put through a FF program until after that first hunting season was over.

But none of those puppies were munching birds either. That would bring in a critical element/need that would have me doing work in the house and yard training proper mouth manners pronto. If I had to take a break from hunting I guess I would as continuing to let a young dog munch birds seems really ill-advised. Hope I never encounter it.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 pm

AverageGuy wrote:Somewhere along the line in this thread the criteria of a young dog munching birds was added into the equation.

I have hunted all of my puppies extensively through their first seasons, with each of them doing excellent work at recovering whatever kind of bird hit the ground or water, live or dead (doves to maxima honkers). None of those puppies were put through a FF program until after that first hunting season was over.

But none of those puppies were munching birds either. That would bring in a critical element/need that would have me doing work in the house and yard training proper mouth manners pronto. If I had to take a break from hunting I guess I would as continuing to let a young dog munch birds seems really ill-advised. Hope I never encounter it.


Which why I advised, long ago on this post, to just hunt the pup for the experience and NOT LET HIM HAVE A BIRD. FF after you're done hunting him.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:08 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:Somewhere along the line in this thread the criteria of a young dog munching birds was added into the equation.

I have hunted all of my puppies extensively through their first seasons, with each of them doing excellent work at recovering whatever kind of bird hit the ground or water, live or dead (doves to maxima honkers). None of those puppies were put through a FF program until after that first hunting season was over.

But none of those puppies were munching birds either. That would bring in a critical element/need that would have me doing work in the house and yard training proper mouth manners pronto. If I had to take a break from hunting I guess I would as continuing to let a young dog munch birds seems really ill-advised. Hope I never encounter it.


Which why I advised, long ago on this post, to just hunt the pup for the experience and NOT LET HIM HAVE A BIRD. FF after you're done hunting him.


Yes, and now we return to that good advice again 9 pages later :lol:
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:42 pm

Kiger2 wrote: She came over to pick him up one day and I throw a tennis ball for him and he pretty much went to happy land. Hes throwing the ball in the air, spitting it etc... A very entrenched habit. That I hadnt seen. So I told to her to hold him to the standard with the bumper but not the ball. Next time I got him back we corrected the ball issue.

Tennis balls are generally a no-no but it's really possible that in this dog you could get where you're going a lot faster with one. Use the ball as the "reward" to get the fetch, hold, and drop commands down pat and then, once they've settled in the dog's brain, you switch to a bumper. In a typical situation you'd go that way with bumpers and switch to a bird anyway. In this case the end result could even be the tennis ball.

I've no argument with Dobb's method except that it requires the dog to figure stuff out by avoiding pain and, as several of us have been exhaustively telling you, rewards are a more powerful motivator.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:56 am

Started back up with the FF process for my young female GWP over the weekend. We stopped just prior to the ear lunch step back in early October. For the most part she picked up right where she left off, opening her mouth and reaching for the dummy on the word FETCH. We did have to give her a couple gum pinches on the first session but she quickly remembered and was back to holding and carrying the objects without dropping them and tail wagging!

I even had her holding a full can of beer. If I can teach her to open the fridge or cooler and retrieve one I won't ever have to get up from the couch on gameday!
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:00 pm

Nice to hear. Did the hunting season go OK for her too?
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby ryanr » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:40 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Nice to hear. Did the hunting season go OK for her too?


Yes, she had a blast and did very well. She has a real nice point and she backs too! She even got one of her rear legs caught in a foothold trap 2 weeks ago. Naturally she freaked out a bit but then just held her foot & let me get her out easily and went right back to hunting. Early in the season I hunted the dogs seperately but as the season wore on if I was pressed for time I hunted them both at the same time. She had enough bird contacts solo that she quickly gave up just chasing my older one around and hunted on her own. Last week she even ran over to another hunter heading out for waterfowl and she jumped off the dock into his boat, ready to go! So she experienced a bunch of different situations which was a goal I had for her.
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Re: FF During Season????

Postby crackerd » Wed Jan 16, 2019 10:42 am

ryanr wrote:Started back up with the FF process for my young female GWP over the weekend. We stopped just prior to the ear lunch step back in early October. For the most part she picked up right where she left off, opening her mouth and reaching for the dummy on the word FETCH. We did have to give her a couple gum pinches on the first session but she quickly remembered and was back to holding and carrying the objects without dropping them and tail wagging!

I even had her holding a full can of beer. If I can teach her to open the fridge or cooler and retrieve one I won't ever have to get up from the couch on gameday!


Except for stalking the TV and cussin' Jimmy Franklin... :wink:

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