Kiger2 wrote:Bruce, Lets say your right about the stress of FF . What difference does it make when its done?
Kiger,
Dogs are indeed place oriented so you could well be right about it not be a problem doing FF during the hunting season.
As far as traditional FF goes, in general I think it's one of those training methods that had a purpose at one time but now there are better and less stressful ways to get to the same point. FF is not done in all countries (and certainly not done by everybody in this country) but I agree with you that most of the time you can't tell one dog from the other. Just because that's so doesn't mean I agree with you that methods don't matter. Traditionally, pros needed to get their dogs to NEVER drop a bird and, since the ecollar hadn't been developed, the not so kind process of FF creeped into the training repertoire. With the advent of the ecollar lots of draconian stuff went out the window - but this one has persisted.
What you're after with FF is for a dog to pick up and hold a bird until you ask it to release it to you and to do so without ruining the meat. I know you can get there rather quickly by asking the dog if it would consider trading a dowel for a piece of kibble or (for a reward) asking it to pick up a dowel off the floor and hold it. Then, once the dog knows exactly what the command "hold" or "fetch" or "drop" means, you can use the collar to reinforce your agreement.
Proponents of traditional FF think the way to get to that point is by aversive means - i.e. pressure. Think of all the problems folks encounter not understanding how to do it correctly. Think of Evan Graham, who dedicated his SmartFetch book to one of his dogs who had been getting "pressure" in FF training for eight weeks and "had yet to reach for a bumper." For eight weeks he'd been pinching this dog's ear and he had the temerity to brag about it!
Anyway, that's my take on all this. One day, traditional FF will be replaced by PR means and we (and our dogs) will be the better for it. I'm enclosing a clip I made of one of my dogs a few years ago who, at four months of age, learned in one week the rudiments of fetch, hold, and give. She also had learned to sit, come, stay, and heel. Later, the ecollar was used to reinforce what she learned. I wouldn't use "clicker" training today but it works well just the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fv9lCsOxhu4