Why is your dog hard mouthed?

[ryanr]

My drahthaar will squeeze the life out of any bird that struggles. If it doesn't struggle it's got somewhat of a chance of being delivered alive. Although with his often stubborn reluctance to give the bird directly to me, at that point if a bird's still alive that usually does it in. He's a PIA like that

With my young GWP, she's had her prey drive amped this season but she's got a soft mouth even when she hesitates to bring the bird right to me. Before her NA this past June, we did a track and when I got to her, I found both her and the pheasant standing there and her just holding the bird by the tip of the tail, not letting it run away. It was comical.

[GONEHUNTIN']

As many of you know, many, many, mouth problems are the result of a poor "HERE". First step in curing ANY hard mouth dog, or dog that may be is strict and unyielding obedience.

[orhunter]

Yup.... "Here/come/fetch," all mean the same thing. A dog not thoroughly schooled in obedience in one area, can infect the other areas. For some things, there is no compromise, you vs the dog.

[AverageGuy]

The Breeder of my first GWP was one of the founding members of the VDD-GNA and sold copies of the original DD training manual translated into English. I used some of the methods from that source in training my first couple of GWPs. The start of the FF program was similar to programs today in that it taught Hold. The method it recommended and I used on a couple of dogs was placing my gloved hand into the dogs mouth as I commanded the dog to Hold. A benefit I perceive to the approach is that it gives the Handler complete and instant feedback on how gentle, or not, the dog is holding the Handler's gloved hand. Any undue pressure by the dog can be immediately felt and corrected is one positive aspect of the approach. I was never crazy about feeling the pup's teeth on my hand and moved on to different approaches on the few subsequent puppies I have worked with.

GH and other experienced Trainers, What are your thoughts on the old school gloved hand approach? Is it a good way to start a pup and give the pup instant feedback when it puts too much pressure on the gloved hand?

I trained my current dog using Perfection Kennel's Perfect Retrieve. He has always been soft mouthed with birds, and still is in this his 3rd season. Live birds come back alive, and seldom do any birds dead or alive have any marks on them. But when I started him on this program I used a plastic center low nap paint roller and I could see him pressing it hard in his mouth in some form of excitement when he first got it in his mouth. So I switched to a piece of PVC and it went away as he did not seem to get the same strokes out of putting pressure on it, since it did not give easily in his mouth. Walking at heel carrying objects brought a calmness to it as well. We got through it, avoided a battle and achieved the desired end product. But this naturally soft mouthed dog did have some excitement issues with squeezing the paint roller when we started. So I switched to a object which did not give in his mouth and things worked out well.

But that combined with this thread makes me interested to hear from those with more experience like GH, Crackerd, DocE, Willie T ...

Does the old school gloved hand approach offer advantages to detecting and addressing mouthing issues at the outset?

[orhunter]

AG: I think many novice (maybe other) trainers skip the hold and go straight to fetch. Although I've never FF's a dog through the entire program, I'd work on hold through the command "fetch" from the very start, like 11 weeks. Pups just like to have something in their mouth so that part was easy. I'd make them hold the object until they were calm and paying more attention to me petting them than the object. At that point request, "give." Although this has nothing to do with hard mouth it gives the trainer an idea of how the pup treats the object. If the pup wants to chew, he has to give the object immediately( with an ear pinch) and isn't allowed to hold.

[GONEHUNTIN']

I've never liked the gloved hand. For one, it can be dangerous. Some of the alligators I've trained would tenderize you in a hurry. Neither do I believe it foretells any mouth problems. I also don't think it teaches the dog a good job of how to hold. Eventually, you have to put a bumper in the dog's mouth. You may as well start with a dowel or bumper because you'll end up there anyhow. I think it's one of those things where a person didn't know how to force a dog, teach hold or was thwarted by the dog and out of frustration stuck his hand in the dog's mouth and grabbed the jaw. I guess no one will ever really know how it originated but it's a system I don't approve of.

[Kiger2]

Gonehuntin,
Im back from chukar hunting, Im just really curious, how many dogs have you used the gloved hand on?????????????????????????????????????????????? I would use more question marks but you get the point.

[JONOV]

I've never liked the gloved hand. For one, it can be dangerous. Some of the alligators I've trained would tenderize you in a hurry. Neither do I believe it foretells any mouth problems. I also don't think it teaches the dog a good job of how to hold. Eventually, you have to put a bumper in the dog's mouth. You may as well start with a dowel or bumper because you'll end up there anyhow. I think it's one of those things where a person didn't know how to force a dog, teach hold or was thwarted by the dog and out of frustration stuck his hand in the dog's mouth and grabbed the jaw. I guess no one will ever really know how it originated but it's a system I don't approve of.

I was told/taught that the idea is that you keep the dog from fighting you when you're teaching the hold. They get used to having something in their mouth, and not fight it. Hold obviously means that they don't drop it.

[Kiger2]

I've never liked the gloved hand. For one, it can be dangerous. Some of the alligators I've trained would tenderize you in a hurry. Neither do I believe it foretells any mouth problems. I also don't think it teaches the dog a good job of how to hold. Eventually, you have to put a bumper in the dog's mouth. You may as well start with a dowel or bumper because you'll end up there anyhow. I think it's one of those things where a person didn't know how to force a dog, teach hold or was thwarted by the dog and out of frustration stuck his hand in the dog's mouth and grabbed the jaw. I guess no one will ever really know how it originated but it's a system I don't approve of.

I was told/taught that the idea is that you keep the dog from fighting you when you're teaching the hold. They get used to having something in their mouth, and not fight it. Hold obviously means that they don't drop it.

Jonov,

So lets address first why Dobbs used the gloved hand. He worked with Rex Carr and as good as Rex was a lot of things he did were very hard on the dog. Heres two examples. My first Golden was FF by my mentor with the Carr method. It was not pretty. While the job got down, it was not pleasant for the dog. Number two, Im throwing bumpers for a pro. He has a dog that wont hold the bumper. He gets into the heel position and spits it out. So the pro lights the dog up, I mean the dog is screaming and the pro is yelling. The dog finally had enough and jumped up and grabbed the pros arm and got him pretty good, drawing blood good, and its a lab. Pro throws the transmitter down, grabs the dog and forces his head to the ground and bites the dogs ear. (Im not making this up). I was pretty stunned. When I went in I asked him if he was trying to establish dominance? He said no, he was trying to find something that hurt the dog enough he would pick up the bumper. I asked him why he even trained the dog. He said this " every owner thinks their dog is the greatest dog on earth, if i dont train this dog , he is going to take him down the road to the next trainer who is going to do whatever it takes to train the dog and I look like I dont know how to train". Ive often wondered what would have happened if the dog had been trained with Dobbs method?????
The gloved hand wasnt an accident by someone who didnt know how to train and GH knows that. He is just biased agaisnt Dobbs.

So Dobbs sees how the the dogs are being treated and he believes theres a better way that is more fair to the dog.So he developed a method that is more fair to the dog. I think he was right.

Ive forced about 2 dozen dogs using the glove. Most of the other "experienced" trainers have probably never tried it because they were never taught it, thought it wasted time, couldnt comprehend the advantages, or had a personal bias agaisnt Jim Dobbs who was a major proponent of it. Most of those "experienced" guys are using a carr based system.

So for you and others lets address, GH's concerns and what the glove actually does.
First off, is it dangerous? Well GH has never said anything before when the glove has been discussed. I have never heard anyone warn about it before ever. Dobbs certainly never mentioned an issue. While its not prudent to say somethings impossible. If someone ever was bitten, or if it was a common issue with the method, warnings would be everywhere. Could it happen? Yup, but I could also win the lottery or get hit by lightning. Lastly, If the dog is going to bite you for this you have a bigger problem, whats he going to do at the vets? whats he going to do when you pinch his ear??

I believe hes correct that it doesnt foretell hardmouth. Heres why, the dogs I have trained without exception hold their mouths open while I hold their jaw. They are trying to avoid hurting me. They will close down, but only briefly and I have never had a dog hurt me. The only reason in my mind to use the glove is that their teeth are sharp and I do have to hold on.

Does it teach a dog to hold a bumper? No, what it does is teach the dog the meaning of the word. If you want my hand out of your mouth, which they do, you need to HOLD my hand and keep your mouth still. Any movement of the mouth gets a correction by pulling on the scruff of the neck. This cause the dogs natural reaction to freeze and its otherwise uncomfortable. GH thinks we should just go to the dowel, well why dont we just go to force pile when FF??? His logic is flawed.
Its a training program and we are building with each step.

One of the benefits of FF is that we teach the dog to bend to our will. You fetch because i told you too. I believe we are also teaching them to "think'.

So when I take hold of the jaw, the dog does through a process, a checkdown list. First they struggle, may last a few seconds but maybe longer. He may ocaisionally close down on the hand, but doesnt bite. Pretty soon, he will just relax and hold your hand, hes gone through the list,when he does, you release your grip and say drop. You hold your hand still and he removes his mouth.
Then you repeat. Ive never had a dog that didnt start to show comprehension during the first session. The next sessions we focus on the amount of time the glove is being held.
So the dog understands that holding his mouth still is whats required. Then we move to a buck. We place the buck in the mouth. If he mouths it we tug on the neck and remind hold. If he drops , we pinch the ear until we place it back in his mouth. So it becomes really easy for the dog to compare keeping it in his mouth and holding it still, to dropping. Then we move to various objects.

Pretty easy to hold a paint roller, but what about a hammer? We work through multiple objects to ensure that the dog comprehends. Its only fair.
Then move to a frozen bird. Dogs still on the table. Any mouthing gets corrected and the dog understands what the correction means. Hold your mouth still. Then fresh kill, etc.......

GH gave a good description of the different types of hard mouth. But a dog that chomps up and down is not always loose mouth. Imagine the pup that had squeeker toys. Hes chomping for the reward of the squeek. Whether its loose or hard mouth. it can be prevented.

So we have the dog hold the glove because it teaches them we have control, it teaches them hold means keep your mouth still, it lays the foundation for future work.

So why is your dog hardmouthed? because you did not train him to be soft.