NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby JONOV » Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:49 am

Spindog wrote:I have had 2 Spinoni. Both great dogs. One was a once in a lifetime dog. The other was above average. They were both from Da Grazia in Spruce Michigan. Not sure if Denise has any breedings scheduled. Not sure why they get such a bad rap. Not a big running field dog but great in cover on Grouse and Woodcock. They also did well in the marsh.

They hunt differently (closer) than most pointing breeds, and they became overbred in a hurry with no thought to how they do in the field.

The breed was accepted into the AKC too soon for its own good; When a minority breed is accepted, it creates a lot of room for handlers to quickly rack up a bunch of accomplishments and build a resume in a hurry, especially with a dog like a Spinone where a 50lb dog or a 100 lb dog can get put up since there's a really good chance the judge doesn't actually have a solid idea what a Spinone should look like, as opposed to a Poodle or Golden Retriever, and there aren't that many Spins to compete against in the first place. Just like Like NAVHDA where there are a handful of high level breeders and trainers, Retriever Trial circles, and the Field Trial circuit where there's a smattering of high profile trainers/handlers (think Luke Eisenhart or Robin Gates) the show world has professional full tme handlers along with ambitious amateurs and semi-pro folks to boot.

And, with any exotic breed, there's a huge contingent of people that think that they are special snowflakes and that they need a special snowflake in a dog. So, even though they would be totally fine with a Boxer or a Beagle or a Lab or a Bernese Mountain dog, the relative glut of data compared with the relative lack of horror stories about a minority breed, combined with a simple lack of supply (you'd be hard pressed to set out to buy a puppy on Saturday Morning and drive home with one Saturday night, as opposed to a Lab or GSP) means that there's money to be made in breeding them.

Finally, and this ties into the first paragraph, there isn't a huge critical mass of dogs that are purpose bred, at least not in relation to the amount of trial dogs. GSP's and GWP's were brought here by hunters, for hunters. Even So, For GSP's, GWP's, Vizslas, Brittany's, there are "alternative" clubs and venues with a vibrant participation that doesn't mess with Obedience Trials, Rallies, etc...GSP's and Vizslas have their own AFTCA-focused clubs, Brittany's have always had a dual purpose bent since Delmar was running them and the Epagneul Breton group, as well as the JGHV clubs for GSP's and DD's.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby Calvinator » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:32 pm

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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby crackerd » Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:17 am

JONOV wrote:
Spindog wrote:I have had 2 Spinoni. Both great dogs. One was a once in a lifetime dog. The other was above average. They were both from Da Grazia in Spruce Michigan. Not sure if Denise has any breedings scheduled. Not sure why they get such a bad rap. Not a big running field dog but great in cover on Grouse and Woodcock. They also did well in the marsh.

They hunt differently (closer) than most pointing breeds, and they became overbred in a hurry with no thought to how they do in the field.

The breed was accepted into the AKC too soon for its own good; When a minority breed is accepted, it creates a lot of room for handlers to quickly rack up a bunch of accomplishments and build a resume in a hurry, especially with a dog like a Spinone where a 50lb dog or a 100 lb dog can get put up since there's a really good chance the judge doesn't actually have a solid idea what a Spinone should look like, as opposed to a Poodle or Golden Retriever, and there aren't that many Spins to compete against in the first place. Just like Like NAVHDA where there are a handful of high level breeders and trainers, Retriever Trial circles, and the Field Trial circuit where there's a smattering of high profile trainers/handlers (think Luke Eisenhart or Robin Gates) the show world has professional full tme handlers along with ambitious amateurs and semi-pro folks to boot. ...


Jonov, "put up" by judges for what, their beards? If there are two spins that have ever run a field trial of any kind, it's one more than I would guess. Judges don't "put up" dogs at hunt tests or NAVHDA, they pass (or fail) them judging by a standard.

If you're talking about the show ring, do you know what a poodle or golden retriever (or Lab) should look like, compared to their field counterparts? There are three classes of poodles for the show fancy, and yet AKC retriever hunt tests (yes, retriever, as that's what pudels [poodles] were bred as) they are just "poodles" when they run tests and are judged accordingly, not as toy, miniature, or standard.

And what would the judges "put up" as a Lab in the show ring that bears but resemblance only by having four legs to what FT judges would "put up" after the fourth series of a field trial, that might call for a 3/4-mile swimming to and fro with three or four birds shot at the trickiest of angles? Ditto for show goldens and them afield or field trialing.

I agree with some of your points, but they're more caveat emptor for someone interested in spins than valid criticism of a breed.

MG
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby ryanr » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:13 am

I think he was talking about field trials and also mixed in a comparison of NAVHDA in the same sentence which made it confusing but I think the reference to "put up" was in reference to field trials, where a dog might be "picked up." No?
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby Spindog » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:00 pm

crackerd wrote: If there are two spins that have ever run a field trial of any kind, it's one more than I would guess.
MG


Gladwin.JPG


This was my boy Guinness, At Gladwin, Judges gave him all 3 HM's, He didn't have the "race" or "style" they were looking for but he found some grouse and woodcock. lol I was so proud of him.

I am not an expert or a judge or a breeder and I know there are people here with much more knowledge and experience. I have seen quite a few Spinoni. Been to a few specialty over the years including Maryland a few months ago. Hunted with at least a dozen over the years. They all seem to have interest, desire and drive. Some more than others. Personally I would not shy away from one. I am not a Snowflake wanting a special rare dog. I am a big guy and just wanted a big pointing dog. My friends refer to me as "Sasquatch with Hound". I lost the two Spinoni, both at 10 years old (another thing to keep in mind) I was looking for another but stumbled upon a Bracco that was available and decided to take the plunge into another lesser known breed. Thought it may be fun to have a bigger runner. So far so good. He is pointing a lot of birds while he hunts deer. :crazyeyes: I plan to get another Spinone when the Bracco is a bit older. I met Jeff Rhodes in Maryland. Didn't get a chance to see his dogs in the field but he seemed like a stand up guy with some nice dogs who hunt a lot.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:33 pm

crackerd wrote:
JONOV wrote:
Spindog wrote:I have had 2 Spinoni. Both great dogs. One was a once in a lifetime dog. The other was above average. They were both from Da Grazia in Spruce Michigan. Not sure if Denise has any breedings scheduled. Not sure why they get such a bad rap. Not a big running field dog but great in cover on Grouse and Woodcock. They also did well in the marsh.

They hunt differently (closer) than most pointing breeds, and they became overbred in a hurry with no thought to how they do in the field.

The breed was accepted into the AKC too soon for its own good; When a minority breed is accepted, it creates a lot of room for handlers to quickly rack up a bunch of accomplishments and build a resume in a hurry, especially with a dog like a Spinone where a 50lb dog or a 100 lb dog can get put up since there's a really good chance the judge doesn't actually have a solid idea what a Spinone should look like, as opposed to a Poodle or Golden Retriever, and there aren't that many Spins to compete against in the first place. Just like Like NAVHDA where there are a handful of high level breeders and trainers, Retriever Trial circles, and the Field Trial circuit where there's a smattering of high profile trainers/handlers (think Luke Eisenhart or Robin Gates) the show world has professional full tme handlers along with ambitious amateurs and semi-pro folks to boot. ...


Jonov, "put up" by judges for what, their beards? If there are two spins that have ever run a field trial of any kind, it's one more than I would guess. Judges don't "put up" dogs at hunt tests or NAVHDA, they pass (or fail) them judging by a standard.

If you're talking about the show ring, do you know what a poodle or golden retriever (or Lab) should look like, compared to their field counterparts? There are three classes of poodles for the show fancy, and yet AKC retriever hunt tests (yes, retriever, as that's what pudels [poodles] were bred as) they are just "poodles" when they run tests and are judged accordingly, not as toy, miniature, or standard.

And what would the judges "put up" as a Lab in the show ring that bears but resemblance only by having four legs to what FT judges would "put up" after the fourth series of a field trial, that might call for a 3/4-mile swimming to and fro with three or four birds shot at the trickiest of angles? Ditto for show goldens and them afield or field trialing.

I agree with some of your points, but they're more caveat emptor for someone interested in spins than valid criticism of a breed.

MG

Ok...So let's you and me go to a dog show. We're both trying to earn points to get that CH title before the dog's name. That requires 15 Points, including a 3 or 5 point major, and a win over a dog that's what they call a Champion of Record and the dog has to have been judged by at least a couple different judges, I'm not an expert and I don't show.

You bring your Lab, and I'll bring my Spinone (I don't have a spin and don't know what dogs you have.) We first compete against our own breed, then against the Group, then against the entire field.

Labs are popular, and you're going to have more of them to beat. If you want your Laborador Bitch to win her 3 point major, you're going to have to win against a field of 21 dogs. If your Spinone wants to win her three point major, you have to compete against 4.

Anyhow, even though the judge should know what they're doing and what they're looking at, you and I both know that everywhere in the doggy-game world you run the propensity to run into both politics and Muppet's for judges, and how many breeds are in the Sporting group, and how well do they really know all of them? But you can bet that they'll get scalped if they screw up by giving a ribbon to a 100 lb GSP.

And I do understand that many breeds, labs most conspicuously, are way different from conformation to performance lines. Others aren't, and I don't know why that is.

It wasn't a criticism of the Spinone, just the people that diluted it with doggy-games. The few that I've seen in person were nice dogs that hunted with a purpose, but they also came from breeders that pushed buyers into testing at NAVHDA.

ryanr wrote:I think he was talking about field trials and also mixed in a comparison of NAVHDA in the same sentence which made it confusing but I think the reference to "put up" was in reference to field trials, where a dog might be "picked up." No?

I was referring to Conformation shows with regards to the judges and "Putting Up" dogs. Maybe that was the wrong term.

My point with field trials is that, for many of the more popular hunting breeds, there is a large contingent of folks that are breeding and competing with the dogs with little or no attention paid to the Beauty Pageant side. GSP's, GWP's, Brittany's, Vizslas, all have sizeable contingents competing in things like NSTRA or AFTCA/American Field type trials or JGHV or NAVHDA. That's my only point.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby JONOV » Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:38 pm

Spindog wrote:
crackerd wrote: If there are two spins that have ever run a field trial of any kind, it's one more than I would guess.
MG


Gladwin.JPG


This was my boy Guinness, At Gladwin, Judges gave him all 3 HM's, He didn't have the "race" or "style" they were looking for but he found some grouse and woodcock. lol I was so proud of him.

I am not an expert or a judge or a breeder and I know there are people here with much more knowledge and experience. I have seen quite a few Spinoni. Been to a few specialty over the years including Maryland a few months ago. Hunted with at least a dozen over the years. They all seem to have interest, desire and drive. Some more than others. Personally I would not shy away from one. I am not a Snowflake wanting a special rare dog. I am a big guy and just wanted a big pointing dog. My friends refer to me as "Sasquatch with Hound".

I didn't meant to call you a snowflake and I'm sorry if I did. But ask any breeder of way less common dogs (Spinone's, Bracco's, Munsterlanders, etc,) and they will all tell you that they gt a lot of calls from people that are interested in the novelty of a breed you don't see walking down the street every day.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby Spindog » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:17 pm

No need to apologize. I know what you are saying.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby Urban_Redneck » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:56 am

Not my style of dog, but, I have seen Spinoni at NAVHDA training that get the job done, including at least one that earned Versatile Champion at the Invitational. There are several that regularly train at Hudson Valley NAVHDA.

As minority breed owner I can tell you that there is a lot of breeder B.S. to sort through. Do your homework and really drill down on pedigrees (breed database + NAVHDA database), to find sires and dams that have scored hunt tests. Don't rely on photos, claims of "great hunter", or(great) grandma and (great)grampa's accomplishments. Having the patience to wait for the right breeding and not falling for the "these are rare dogs" dangle that some breeders use to move pups, can be difficult- be strong :lol:

Lastly, there's nothing wrong with wanting a minority breed, you're the one who is going to own, feed, and care for the dog for the next 10+ years. Get the one you want, you don't owe anyone (especially German dog owners ;) ) an explanation.

Best of luck.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby JONOV » Fri Oct 26, 2018 9:14 am

Also Cipresseto Kennel (the Prima's) in Tennessee.
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby tmc » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:31 am

JONOV wrote:Also Cipresseto Kennel (the Prima's) in Tennessee.


There is a good interview on the latest Hunting Dog Podcast with the Norm and Carol Prima.

https://thehuntingdogpodcast.com/episod ... rol-prima/
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Re: NAVDHA Spinone Breeders

Postby Beerman » Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:23 pm

Call Joe and Penny at Sagebrush Spinone Great Great people and great dogs. http://www.onlyspinoni.com/
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