Breaking a puppy

Pointing, retrieving, flushing, tracking, behavioral issues, puppy training, etc.

Moderator: Moderator Pack

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:00 am

I will never understand what is accomplished by physically restraining a puppy whether with a tie out, a leash, or by crating. This method teaches pups absolutely nothing except that they really don't want to come to you. Let's face it, only a really stupid pup is going to come running to you if you may restrain it at any moment. While the end goal may be accomplished, in the end, physically restraining a pup is the lazy way to compliance and only works until it doesn't. I never put a collar on a pup until it is time to teach the heal at about 6 months. I never train before the heal....I lead them into doing things the way I want. It has been my experience that pups learn at an amazingly fast rate, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.....the thing is....you got to be smarter than they are.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby orhunter » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:45 pm

I agree with Hicntry a little bit..... I put a collar on a pup as soon as I get it. There is lots of stuff I begin teaching by 12 weeks and the pup needs to comfortable with its collar by then. Come, Whoa, fetch, all require a collar in addition to basic manners while on a lead.

A crate should always be a welcome sanctuary for a pup, not a means of confinement which the pup views as punishment, something to hate or fear. The most confinement my pups ever experienced was the back yard. They learned to love sleeping in their crates.
SARCASM, one of the many free services I offer
orhunter
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 7705
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 12:29 am
Location: nw oregon

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby ryanr » Thu Aug 23, 2018 6:35 pm

hicntry wrote:I will never understand what is accomplished by physically restraining a puppy whether with a tie out, a leash, or by crating. This method teaches pups absolutely nothing except that they really don't want to come to you. Let's face it, only a really stupid pup is going to come running to you if you may restrain it at any moment. While the end goal may be accomplished, in the end, physically restraining a pup is the lazy way to compliance and only works until it doesn't. I never put a collar on a pup until it is time to teach the heal at about 6 months. I never train before the heal....I lead them into doing things the way I want. It has been my experience that pups learn at an amazingly fast rate, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.....the thing is....you got to be smarter than they are.


Who restrains a puppy with any of those things in hope of teaching it to come to you? No one and no one here has even suggested that.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
ryanr
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 2317
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:54 pm
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby Dmog » Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:52 pm

I don’t know if it was here I saw it from but I refer to it as anchoring the pup. Leash on it in the house to get it used to a leash and let’s them know Thier spot in the living room. I used it successfully and plan to use it on next pup. Keeps you engaged on the signs of house training and starts to establish the inside the house boundaries.
Mog: Half man, half woolly dog.
User avatar
Dmog
Senior Poster
Senior Poster
 
Posts: 207
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:58 pm
Location: Pratt, KS

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby Expert » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:47 am

I use the "show me" housebreaking method that I invented. I can't give all the details but first I find a semi private spot at the back of my yard where I want my dog to pee and poo. Then, when I need to go, I take the puppy out with me and relieve myself in the special spot outside, the puppy will see this and soon learn this is the bathroom spot outside.

I have learned that it is important that you don't let your dog see you use your inside toilet while housebreaking with this method - so close the bathroom door if you have an emergency and can't make it to the special potty spot or you will find yourself with wet brown socks!

Full disclosure: I am in the process of creating and selling an ebook with instructional photos using my method.

- Expert
I forgot more than most know, I know, it's a curse.
User avatar
Expert
Started
Started
 
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:05 pm
Location: The Chicken Ranch

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby JONOV » Mon Aug 27, 2018 3:49 pm

hicntry wrote:I will never understand what is accomplished by physically restraining a puppy whether with a tie out, a leash, or by crating. This method teaches pups absolutely nothing except that they really don't want to come to you.
Only if that's all you do when you call the dog to you...Its variable reinforcement. I call my dog for a lot of things...To scratch his head, to play fetch, to go for a walk, to give him a treat, to give him a pill, to brush him or pull burrs, to lick the pan before it goes in the dishwasher.

You aren't training anything, you're just socializing it to be tied on a stake or confined to a kennel. Really, not much different than socializing your dog to a horse if you need the dog to work with you on a horse, or getting the dog used to riding in a boat if you duck hunt, or a host of other things.

hicntry wrote:you got to be smarter than they are.

That's the truth...Some dogs are harder than others but generally speaking, you have to be the "benevolent dictator." If your just a dick-tater, you end up with problems no different than if your purely benevolent. Think about an e-collar...Even if you never properly collar condition the dog, just use it to fry him, the dog shouldn't associate the collar with pain...The dog should associate the pain with rolling in manure or chasing deer. But if your just a ham fisted dic(tator,) then the dog won't trust you, or the collar, or want to go work the field since last time you shocked him six ways from Sunday.

Even well meaning (or simply overly controlling) people get in trouble if they take the crate thing too far...If the dog is confined for eight hours straight at night and then four hours in the morning and four hours in the afternoon, then the dog is going to have problems.

hicntry wrote: Let's face it, only a really stupid pup is going to come running to you if you may restrain it at any moment. While the end goal may be accomplished, in the end, physically restraining a pup is the lazy way to compliance and only works until it doesn't. I never put a collar on a pup until it is time to teach the heal at about 6 months. I never train before the heal....I lead them into doing things the way I want. It has been my experience that pups learn at an amazingly fast rate, both the good stuff and the bad stuff.....the thing is....


I c*#$%@ around crate training my dog. He's fine now, but it was a hassle I'll not repeat. I had his half sister for a few weeks this summer (7-10 weeks old) and she acclimated herself to the crate in about a day and a half.
JONOV
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby hicntry » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:08 pm

Jonov, I enjoy your posts because you think things out. I might no always agree with your conclusions, but, you do a pretty good job of explaining how you arrive at them. I am going to put some stuff to you that most have seen, but, think about it. First off, I don't collar any pup until they are about ready to train. No pups are raised in the house around people. Don't ever use crates or leashes. Don't use treats. Don't ever chase them or call them to me. Don't ever correct them. Don't even play with them for 2 or 3 days at a time and when I do it is for no more than 10 minutes. I could go on, but, you may have noticed that everything is a don't and most people do every one of them and yet they can't get compliance from a single pup.!!!!!!!!
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v40 ... 4d53f7.mp4
In just a day or so the pups have to actually be coaxed off the bed and if they don't all come down it is no big deal.
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v40 ... 8a20b1.mp4
Again, no treats and it doesn't matter it they all comply because they will in their own time.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... 38copy.jpg
Once again, they don't all have to do something at the same time because they will do it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v401/ ... 89copy.jpg

So, what is so hard about it since almost everything people do is a "don't do". The easiest thing to do is to leave them alone and be puppies. Sure, all the crazy things people insist on doing can still create a "decent" dog.....but who wants decent when you can have more with a lot less effort.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:14 am

To clarify, forced restraint has been an effective method of controlling behaviors for centuries. Yes, it is also semi effective in it's own right. Forced restraint like putting people in stocks in public, jail cells, handcuffs, straight jackets....all forms of punishment to induce a desired behavior. Why do puppies throw a fit when chained or crated? It is punishment which isn't the most effective way to form a bond with pups. Yes, they learn to quiet down and behave after subjected to forced restraint for a period of time, but, so do prisoners and anything else subjected to forced restraint. Personally, I could get the desired behavior quicker by putting a knot on the dogs head. The point people are missing is that these are puppie. Blank slates so to speak. They are willing to do whatever and are much more pliable than older dogs. Pups need teaching, dogs need training. By the way, the OP's title for this thread was perfect considering the subject.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby JONOV » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:48 am

hicntry wrote:To clarify, forced restraint has been an effective method of controlling behaviors for centuries. Yes, it is also semi effective in it's own right. Forced restraint like putting people in stocks in public, jail cells, handcuffs, straight jackets....all forms of punishment to induce a desired behavior. Why do puppies throw a fit when chained or crated? It is punishment which isn't the most effective way to form a bond with pups. Yes, they learn to quiet down and behave after subjected to forced restraint for a period of time, but, so do prisoners and anything else subjected to forced restraint. Personally, I could get the desired behavior quicker by putting a knot on the dogs head. The point people are missing is that these are puppie. Blank slates so to speak. They are willing to do whatever and are much more pliable than older dogs. Pups need teaching, dogs need training. By the way, the OP's title for this thread was perfect considering the subject.

I saw the irony in that...

My wife has a side business potty training difficult kids or doing consultations with parents of young kids that are having problems. She said that some kids are simply much more manipulative and uncooperative than others...And that causes problems. Ever see someone (or personally) done something with full knowledge of the consequences and decided, "I'll take the risk, its worth it?"

I think some dogs are similar, hence MissiK's experience with it working on her one dog.

Potty training a puppy isn't that difficult most of the time, "No-no-no" when you see it piddle in the house and run it outside and reward it when it does that. And "restraint" (in a broad term) is needed for that. I'd block off portions of my house from a puppy because she would hide to do her business. Basically, the dog stayed in the kitchen/with me at first.

I mention that because I really do think that some dogs require a heavier stick and aren't as enticed by the carrot.

But this is potty training.

And, your example of incarceration, stocks, straight jackets, I think, sort of miss the point. Its more like a parent that doesn't let a toddler out of their sight. Or, that lets a baby that's been fed and has a dry diaper cry itself to sleep. Some kids settle a bit more quickly, some amp up the behavior to see if they can get mom to come rock them.

I think that one thing that makes your experience less relevant to Joe Public living in a house with one or two dogs, is that you have an entire pack that lives as a pack will in the dog yard. Your experiences remind me of an interview I listened to with a Hunt Master that had dozens of Foxhounds. I've never kept more than four dogs at once, and that was briefly. BUT, I will say that my dog, and another I was dogsitting for, were mannered and trained-ish. The foster and the puppy weren't. So everyone sits before we go outside. My dog sits, Dogsit sits...I wait, puppy goofs around, looks at me, the dogs, and sits...Old foster didn't sit but I chalk that up to blindness, he did stand there in line with the others...wish I got a picture.
JONOV
Master Poster
Master Poster
 
Posts: 470
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:14 pm

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby hicntry » Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:06 pm

"I think that one thing that makes your experience less relevant to Joe Public living in a house with one or two dogs, is that you have an entire pack that lives as a pack will in the dog yard."

I totally disagree on the relevance since what I am showing people is that they would get a lot more out of a pup if they gave it room to breath. People always give the advice of letting a pup be a pup, but they don't have a clue as to what it means. People today exhibit less restraint than what they expect out of a pup. I am well aware that people won't be able to get their pups to act anything like what you see my pups doing. Key word being "won't". I show these vids and pics so that maybe a few will come to the realization that they could do so much more without the forced methods that only benefit the owners but never the pup. I show this stuff over and over for the few that still have the capacity to think. Am I wanting people to do what I do??? No, because I know they can't do it.....I just want a few to realize there are better ways than what they are being told.

And, yes. My dogs are raised in a pack environment with little interaction from me. Since you think that has such a bearing on things....why will these pack oriented pups so willingly follow my lead. By the way, every pup in every litter goes right up a stairway even though they have nerve seen stairs. Even pups raised in the house next to stairs won't adapt as quickly. Why is that??
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
hicntry
Champion Poster
Champion Poster
 
Posts: 3726
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2003 7:22 pm
Location: North Fork, CA

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby Buck Dancer » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:58 am

I just got a Pudelpointer a few days ago I using the method detailed in a small little book my last breeder gave me called "Housebreaking: Pure and Simple". It worked on my lab very quickly who is a very calm dog and was 12 weeks when I got him. So far, at times my PP is the Tasmanian Devil and only 8 weeks. So it is more difficult to pick up the cues when he is vibrating with energy constantly.

Basically, the method is the same as many mentioned here, lead on at all times in the house to keep the dog nearby and keep an eye. Lots of trips outside to the dog toilet area in my yard. 1 cheerio for each pee or bowel movement done right outside. Scheduled feeding time, and monitor big drinks. So far only one partial accident as I picked him up as he started to go - drip drip drip.

My 12 week lab never had a problem with staying in the crate all night without me taking him outside (Also never as much as a whimper from my lab when put in the kennel for the first time whereas this puppy howls for at least 30 minutes). With this 8 week old, when I get up to pee in the middle of the night, I take him out for his pee. This morning at 4:30 AM he peed like a racehorse and pooped thus earning 2 cheerios. I am not a morning person. :|
Buck Dancer
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:17 am

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby Birdog72 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:40 am

To answer your question. There is a lot to teach a dog patientence on leash. When you are at training days, in the field, or camping a night. The leash training he is talking about is to get a dog acclimated to being on a tie out stake for a time frame. Imo it is important, make sure you are doing a short leash. Do it inside for a time, basically until they stop whining like crate training. Then move to the backyard, obviously supervised. My breeder recommends 11 weeks to start this. Then go to different places from here. Like kennel training you should be able to do it anywhere at any time. This will help you in real life situations. Again start in increments your dog shows you. If it is 5 mins till he or she stops whining and is controlled then that is means to immediately let them off and praise. If it is more or less then the same applies. The green book talks about anchoring into the floor board. You can find other things to do this with.
Last edited by Birdog72 on Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Birdog72
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:17 pm

Re: Breaking a puppy

Postby Birdog72 » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:48 am

Side note to what I said every dog learns different things at different places in their life make sure your dog is kennel trained first. Also keep it to your house and yard when they are young and never restrict them in a field you are working in. They are more then capable of learning when to chill out and when to hunt as long as you make those distinction. In my house I expect them to sit, whoa and come and stop playing with my other dog when I tell then, in the field i give zero commands till they are a lot older. Basically after they are ranging, bird crazy and searching on their own with extreme confidence.
Birdog72
Pup
Pup
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:17 pm

Previous

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 17 guests