Handling and/or hand signals questions

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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:29 pm

GH, How do you stop cheating??
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:03 pm

Kiger2 wrote:GH, How do you stop cheating??


These days I no longer compete or test so I water force but I don't decheat. When I was competing, I used a bank breaking drill to teach them rather than the swim by. I did that because many of my clients wanted Derby dog's and their dog's didn't handle, so my only recourse was to bank break. Even now, I still believe the drill is the best way to bank break a dog.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:35 pm

GH, I don't know what a bank breaking drill is, but would like to, if you have time to explain.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:29 pm

AverageGuy wrote:GH, I don't know what a bank breaking drill is, but would like to, if you have time to explain.


When I was training, I had a pond built just for it. The pond was 30 yards square with square corners. When I dug it, I sunk a 55 gallon drum filled with concrete in the center, then buried it. Embedded in the barrel was a steel pipe with a pulley on top that stuck up 10' above the water with a rope running from me to the pipe and back to me. I used this because I could bank break non handling dog's on it.

You start by throwing a bumper to the center of the pond and send the dog. You ALWAYS stand at a corner of the pond. All dog's are one sided so you start with either your right or left hand side and NEVER mix them up. When the dog returns, throw the bumper a little off center. When the dog successfully completes that, throw it more to the right of center. Each time the dog is successful, throw the bumper a little more right (or left). Keep working the dog closer to the bank. If he tries to beach, Jerk him on the line toward center and touch him with the collar. Do this until you can throw the bumper ON THE SHORE and the Dodgers will flare in to the water to get it, pick up the bumper and jump right back in to the pond. Once he's done on the right side, do the same thing on the left side.

You don't need my elaborate set up to do it. You can do the same thing on any square corner pond but DO have a floating poly rope on the dog. Put your Kayak in the center of the pond with an anchor on one end and the pulley on the other. Use the Kayak the same way I used the pole. If he tries to run the bank, pull him in to the water. Whenever he tries to get out, put tension on the rope and touch him with the collar ONLY WHEN HIS FEET HIT BOTTOM. That is the fastest and by far the easiest way to bank break any dog and can be done at a far, far, younger age.

I don't know who it was, but somewhere out there is a video on Utube a guy breaking a dog this way. I have used this method since 1978 and as far as I know, I may have been the originator of it. I really don't know. Let me know if you have any questions. Thing with having the boat or pole out there is that if the dog gets pissed and won't go, you can put pressure on the rope and touch him with the collar and FORCE him to go.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:03 pm

This should give you the idea.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9dRluQJswE
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:03 pm

Duplicate
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:12 am

Thank you GH.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:15 am

Booger: just another word of caution about use of ecollar. Not sure what breed your dog is but most vdogs are very sensitive to that kind of correction. When doing retriever drills I rarely correct, and when I do it's an extremely low dose (like one you can barely feel on your own hand). Evan Graham on Smartworks is training labradors and they are normally very stable so he can get away with stuff you can never get away with - so be careful. I haven't seen his videos but his books are over the top in the use of the collar. Instead of correcting I move the test closer and repeat it as often as I need to in order to get compliance. I think the retriever world calls doing it that way "attrition".

A word about PR and the clicker - if you say "gooood" instead of clicking the dog can hear if from farther away and has the same effect as the click. Any sound works as long as it's consistent. Plus you don't need to tie up a hand with a clicker. Rewarding with a few kernels of kibble will get you a lot farther than you will with a collar correction (another old wives' tale).
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:07 am

Bruce Schwartz wrote:Booger: just another word of caution about use of ecollar. Not sure what breed your dog is but most vdogs are very sensitive to that kind of correction. When doing retriever drills I rarely correct, and when I do it's an extremely low dose (like one you can barely feel on your own hand). Evan Graham on Smartworks is training labradors and they are normally very stable so he can get away with stuff you can never get away with - so be careful. I haven't seen his videos but his books are over the top in the use of the collar. Instead of correcting I move the test closer and repeat it as often as I need to in order to get compliance. I think the retriever world calls doing it that way "attrition".

A word about PR and the clicker - if you say "gooood" instead of clicking the dog can hear if from farther away and has the same effect as the click. Any sound works as long as it's consistent. Plus you don't need to tie up a hand with a clicker. Rewarding with a few kernels of kibble will get you a lot farther than you will with a collar correction (another old wives' tale).


Thanks for the feedback, I certainly feel like the ecollar comments are on point. My session yesterday I just used the clicker and "no". And I use the clicker but I also praise. It's probably over the top to some people, but my dog really does NEED the encouragement.

I found out what is screwing my dog up. Since I know she keys much more on body language, I've been using a similar motion for fetch as I do for place. So when the bumpers are out she doesn't want to go to place, I think in fear that she'll be stopped and the bumpers are typically in line with the place mat. So I ended up heeling her quite a bit again. Just did a back bucket/bumpers. 3 backs then a whistle to stop, which she took nicely and threw a bumper to over, then she took the over really well. But on the next back she wanted to veer over. So the next back I threw. 3 more backs and over to the other side, thrown, again went well. This time she held a better line to back right after the over.

Then I put the bumpers in a bucket and just worked on place and she did much better.

I'm also starting to think me looking at her is pressure to her. I'll wait for her to look at me and maybe give a slow command (mostly so she waits for the actual voice command). Sometimes doing nothing except staring at her causes her to break. I actually started looking around instead of at her as much.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:05 pm

you're right about her keying off your body motions. Dogs respond to verbal stuff but their instincts are geared towards movement. That's why a thrown dummy is infinitely more interesting than one on the ground that they can see, or, even worse, a blind that they can't see, so you have to be careful about your body motions betraying what you tell the dog. You can use that to your advantage as, for instance, you move to the right or left as you extend your arm for an over they will respond quicker.

If you provide us with a short video of what you're doing or trying to do it would help in making suggestions.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:39 pm

I'll try to take my gopro next time.

I've been trying to work in, what I consider to be, a swim by on land by handling her on the way back a couple times. I've also been leaning and putting my arm out to get her to come more directly to me on the way back.

I'm going to try another session of thrown overs and blind/cold backs with the bucket. Then I'm hoping we're ready for blind/cold overs with the back blind/cold bucket. And then the same in a small square pond.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:08 pm

booger wrote:I'm also starting to think me looking at her is pressure to her.


Your dog should be focused on you intently and be excited to see what command you're going to give. If she's hesitant or your facial expression worries her then you need a lot more fun interaction and fun dummies (freebies) to get her engaged. This is supposed to be fun for her - and you. In the learning phase it needs to be all fun.

Also don't train every day as it can all be boring for her and an occasional live or dead bird will do wonders.

This is advice to myself as much as you.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:12 pm

Kiger2 wrote:Misskiwi,
Its not an absolute, but it is not uncommon. 2 dog sample size is too small.


Make that sample size three. :D
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby booger » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:46 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:
booger wrote:I'm also starting to think me looking at her is pressure to her.


Your dog should be focused on you intently and be excited to see what command you're going to give. If she's hesitant or your facial expression worries her then you need a lot more fun interaction and fun dummies (freebies) to get her engaged. This is supposed to be fun for her - and you. In the learning phase it needs to be all fun.

Also don't train every day as it can all be boring for her and an occasional live or dead bird will do wonders.

This is advice to myself as much as you.


It's more that she's anticipating my command then her being worried. Well except that she'll lay down on the place mat sometimes which is to me a sign of submission and giving in to pressure, but that's not when she's anticipating a command. Typically that happens when I put her on her place mat. She's wandered off it a few times which typically gets a reset and louder command with me pushing/slapping her chest back.

I think part of my problem has not been training enough. I was doing once a week (average) and things were going slow. I almost never train 2 days in a row.

I almost think it is better in terms of her breaking that she isn't staring at me intently. When she does stare at me, the chances of her breaking go way up.
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Re: Handling and/or hand signals questions

Postby crackerd » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:58 pm

booger wrote:I think part of my problem has not been training enough. I was doing once a week (average) and things were going slow. I almost never train 2 days in a row.


No disrespect, but you're cart-before-horsing it with your water training. Handling on water starts with the swim-by as Kiger noted - it's really a farfetched notion that a dog will take hand signals on land and have that skill translate to handling even in a rudimentary sense on water.

The dogs you are seeing as "just about flawless" in videos have gone through hundreds of repetitions both in forcing and in undergoing the swim-by drill for water handling. And while forcing is only the start of it - what it accomplishes (when done correctly and with the precise timing on the forcing) is turning water into a dog's best friend. Meaning they will seek out water like a high dive artist jumping into a tub the size of a thimble. And how do dogs seek out water? - by getting into it at the earliest opportunity.

Some dogs have been forced so beautifully that they "smell" water even when it's not visible to them. I've got one of those - and she's all but too watery. Last week on a mark in training, she knew exactly where it land across an upside-down L-shaped pond but changed her line to resemble a Pflueger circle hook to get in the water 25 yards early and swim around the "hinge" of the upside down "L." Why? Because she was trained - to a great extent on technical water - never to "run past" water without getting wet. It's a beautiful thing to watch even when takes that training to an extreme because she aims to please. She's also almost 11 years old, and to get her water attitude bottled would be one of three wishes I'd have fulfilled by a genie if possible.

Believe me, the alternatives to "too watery" - having a cheater for life or a water-shy retriever (they exist) - is far worse.

But if you're looking to have any kind of handling gundog on water, the swim-by as Kiger and others have noted must be the lynchpin for success. So here you go, courtesy of the great amateur trainer Dennis Voigt, ex- of Retrievers Online magazine: http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/the-swim-by-retriever-training-Page1.htm

MG
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