vjp test question

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vjp test question

Postby mahlon » Fri May 11, 2018 10:16 am

Here are two unusual cases that I would like to have your thoughts on:

The dog moves through the bird field and has a couple of points. While the judges are discussing the score, she goes on another point. After about a minute, she starts to relocate on the bird very nicely and the judges see it. Should bonus points be given for the last bird?

During the rabbit track, she tracks the rabbit very well and even figures out a dead end the rabbit made and got back on the traIl After she loses the track in a thicket, she goes back to the beginning of the trail and immediately slams on point and holds it at least 3 minutes before a quail is flushed. Does finding this bird add to her trailing score? Does it add to her pointing score?

Thanks
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Re: vjp test question

Postby huntinmo » Fri May 11, 2018 12:17 pm

There is no such thing as "bonus points", the dog is evaluated on its performance during the free search. All performance is considered both good and not so good. Pointing a bird does not add to the tracking score. For tracking the judges are probably more interested in seeing the dogs concentration on the track. Scores are not "added on to", if the judges see predominately a very good performance throughout the evaluation phases they place the score somewhere in that category for the overall score of that performance. The VJP is a natural ability test and the judges are scoring the natural abilities shown by the dog in the various phases of the test. Why do you consider these performances unusual? Probably happens all the time! :wink:
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Re: vjp test question

Postby mahlon » Fri May 11, 2018 1:05 pm

I thought the dog could score higher points if it relocated on the bird. Also, if she had a 3 minute plus point she perhaps could have scored higher. If that is true, then when does the scoring of the dog end for point. Should either of those actions been scored or are they ignored once the point/search portion are ended eventhough the relocate took place before they scored her..
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Re: vjp test question

Postby huntinmo » Fri May 11, 2018 4:30 pm

When was the handler told to pick up the dog? How many commands did the handler give the dog while she was pointing? What behaviors did the judges see throughout the test? Too many unknowns to say, but the dog would have received credit for whatever she did on her own, good or not so good, and that is what the score would have reflected. :)
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Re: vjp test question

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri May 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Briefly:
No bonus points... depending upon the subject it's a 10, 11 or 12 point scale. 11 in pointing generally requires an 11 bird.

Tracking is judged on hare, fox or rabbit... not birds... that's NAVHDA.

A judge can only judge what HE sees... i.e. can't accurately evaluate over internet.

Lastly, if you're intimating your score was incorrect... you have to protest within 30min of the reading of the scores. And, you can't protest a score, only the way a test was conducted.

Welcome to the system...

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Re: vjp test question

Postby TruAblePup » Fri May 11, 2018 10:46 pm

3drahthaars wrote:Briefly:

Tracking is judged on hare, fox or rabbit... not birds... that's NAVHDA.

3ds


Unless you're in Canada. The VDD uses a flightless pheasant to track here.
Isaac II vom Buffeltaler "Pax" - VJP 73
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Re: vjp test question

Postby randomnut » Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 pm

From the judges I've tested around, you won't get that much time on a point. I'd say normally around twenty seconds or less, before I've been told to pick up.

I did receive an 11 on a point once. Dog locked up, then started flagging after about 10 seconds. Relocated with a staunch point.
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Re: vjp test question

Postby 3drahthaars » Sat May 12, 2018 11:24 am

TruAblePup wrote:
3drahthaars wrote:Briefly:

Tracking is judged on hare, fox or rabbit... not birds... that's NAVHDA.

3ds


Unless you're in Canada. The VDD uses a flightless pheasant to track here.


Yes, of course a special exception but not in the VZPO and only in CA!

Might be an issue with new requirement for performance breedings.

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Re: vjp test question

Postby mahlon » Sun May 13, 2018 8:00 am

Just to clarify. The bird she found was a planted bird. Only rabbits were used for the track. So the question is- if the dog finds and points a planted bird during a rabbit only test, does that find of the bird affect the score one way or the other?
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Re: vjp test question

Postby huntinmo » Sun May 13, 2018 12:27 pm

Just to clarify, birds may have been released, but not planted, and there is no such thing as a rabbit only test although concentration on the track when the handler indicates to the dog that he wants her to track is important. As previously stated, all of the dog's various talents and abilities throughout the test both good and not so good are considered in the final scores. :morning:
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Re: vjp test question

Postby AverageGuy » Sun May 13, 2018 1:01 pm

huntinmo wrote: As previously stated, all of the dog's various talents and abilities throughout the test both good and not so good are considered in the final scores. :morning:


So relative to the OP question, where the pup ran across and pointed a quail during the tracking portion of the test: I understand your post to say that find/point, if seen by the Judge, would be taken into account in the pup's overall score in the pointing subject. Do I have that correct?
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Re: vjp test question

Postby 3drahthaars » Sun May 13, 2018 1:04 pm

mahlon wrote:Just to clarify. The bird she found was a planted bird. Only rabbits were used for the track. So the question is- if the dog finds and points a planted bird during a rabbit only test, does that find of the bird affect the score one way or the other?


Again, one can only judge what one SEEs.

That said, with open judging if search and pointing were completed prior to tracking,the final scores for search and pointing should have been announced upon closing of these two subjects... that other point wouldn't change overall score.

Interesting that rabbits were still in the search area... and, a planted bird not located during the search... would have had to have been there...
.

As to "planting" ... birds should be released...

But, that doesn't mean birds aren't planted... seen it done... if you saw someone with a bird bag walk or ATV into the field before each search... could be.
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Re: vjp test question

Postby J D Patrick » Sun May 13, 2018 2:01 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
huntinmo wrote: As previously stated, all of the dog's various talents and abilities throughout the test both good and not so good are considered in the final scores. :morning:


So relative to the OP question, where the pup ran across and pointed a quail during the tracking portion of the test: I understand your post to say that find/point, if seen by the Judge, would be taken into account in the pup's overall score in the pointing subject. Do I have that correct?



that is my understanding,,,even if they point the rabbit (say it hunkered down at end of track) and it is seen, it gets factored into their score for pointing,,,any bird point "counts" towards overall evaluation
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Re: vjp test question

Postby huntinmo » Sun May 13, 2018 5:38 pm

J D Patrick wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:
huntinmo wrote: As previously stated, all of the dog's various talents and abilities throughout the test both good and not so good are considered in the final scores. :morning:


So relative to the OP question, where the pup ran across and pointed a quail during the tracking portion of the test: I understand your post to say that find/point, if seen by the Judge, would be taken into account in the pup's overall score in the pointing subject. Do I have that correct?



that is my understanding,,,even if they point the rabbit (say it hunkered down at end of track) and it is seen, it gets factored into their score for pointing,,,any bird point "counts" towards overall evaluation


Yes, even if an evaluation were given during "open judging" that could be modified by any subsequent performance and explained in a later portion of the "open judging". Scores are not final until the end of the test. :)
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Re: vjp test question

Postby 3drahthaars » Mon May 14, 2018 8:29 am

Just my opinion but I believe that you are confusing the VZPO with the VGPO where it specifically states that all subjects are under evaluation until the final announcement of scores.

Generally, when a subject is completed, (e.g. search and pointing) and the numeric score and explanation given to handler under open judging it is closed...

You might entertain submitting the question at the next JGHV judging seminar for clarification or at the least referencing the QoTP to make sure that you are correct in your interpretation/practice... :wink:


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