Cold water and resistant Griff

North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association Tests

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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby ryanr » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:12 am

themud wrote:We did the NA test. I feel awful.

Perfect track, perfect water. Pointing 1, desire 2, cooperation 1. I think the desire was a bad call. He's a griff and tends to jog when he hunts and doesn't sprint. He found all 4 birds, but they are saying he only partly pointed one. He caught 2 and gave them up and in fact brought one up to our feet. The two that flew off he chased about 60 yards and stopped and I had to pull him back into the hunt. Cooperation was probably my fault due to the fact that he comes 100% of the time when we were out alone, but wouldn't come when he was hunting until he got the bird in his mouth. I kept whistling and calling which probably told them he wasn't obeying.

I was most worried about water and that was actually the only one I really concentrated on. I let him run in a field daily for an hour and drug a dead pheasant about once per month down through neighbors yards to let him track, but I didn't train point because he usually did it briefly when out playing.


It's a 3 judge team, all of them very experienced in both handling and judging NAVHDA dogs, of numerous breeds. What they saw that one day was judged correctly, you can be assured of that. I'm not saying that to knock you or your dog. Whether the dog sprints or jogs has little to no bearing on how they judge desire to work. Instead of discounting the judges assessment, hopefully you use it to benefit both you and your dog.

My latest GWP had her NA at the end of June. We got banged a point on cooperation and a point in search, and it was accurate. Her search was actually fine overall but it just took a little for her to get going, she was checking things out. The judges saw it and judged accordingly. Same with cooperation, they judged it accordingly and I used their assessment to benefit my dog. Guess who comes to me now no matter what distraction she sees or has in her mouth?
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sat Sep 01, 2018 5:13 am

I wish I knew I could speak to the judges about my pup's score after the scores were announced. Months later, I found out that, although "cooperation" and "desire" are next to "search" and "use of nose" on your card, the pup's cooperation and desire are judged throughout the test day, not just in the field. NAVHDA judging is more nuanced than the handler's score card let's on ;) While I think it was pretty obvious, it would have been nice to know exactly why my pup got 3s in track and cooperation.

As for your pup, dogs mature at different rates. Much of that is dependent on exposure to game, time in the field, and training.
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby JTracyII » Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:35 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:I wish I knew I could speak to the judges about my pup's score after the scores were announced. Months later, I found out that, although "cooperation" and "desire" are next to "search" and "use of nose" on your card, the pup's cooperation and desire are judged throughout the test day, not just in the field. NAVHDA judging is more nuanced than the handler's score card let's on ;) While I think it was pretty obvious, it would have been nice to know exactly why my pup got 3s in track and cooperation.

As for your pup, dogs mature at different rates. Much of that is dependent on exposure to game, time in the field, and training.


Some judges will score any dog that gets less than a 4 in track with no more than a 3 in cooperation no matter how cooperative they were in the entirety of the test.
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby Deuce » Tue Sep 04, 2018 4:01 pm

JTracyII wrote:
Some judges will score any dog that gets less than a 4 in track with no more than a 3 in cooperation no matter how cooperative they were in the entirety of the test.


Haven't seen that... I wonder if that's an old timer thing? Coop on track is a secondary to the field which carries most weight. Would be interesting to bring up at a Judge's workshop if that was a reason for a 3 in coop.
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby JTracyII » Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:52 pm

Deuce wrote:
JTracyII wrote:
Some judges will score any dog that gets less than a 4 in track with no more than a 3 in cooperation no matter how cooperative they were in the entirety of the test.


Haven't seen that... I wonder if that's an old timer thing? Coop on track is a secondary to the field which carries most weight. Would be interesting to bring up at a Judge's workshop if that was a reason for a 3 in coop.


Happened to me twice. On the second one I approached the judge after scores were read when questions about scores were welcomed. I explained that I was happy with my score overall and wasn’t complaining, but had a question about the cooperation score that was given. I explained that in the field my dog hunted well and swung to the front when I turned, came directly to me when called each of 3 times I called her in field, even caught 2 of the birds pointed and retrieved them unharmed directly to hand, went straight out and back on both swims retrieving both bumpers to hand with no dropping, and despite not doing her best track once on it she tracked well and pointed at the end. Once the bird at the end of her track flew she chased it down and brought right to hand with a single command. I then respectfully asked, if she didn’t exhibit cooperation to a level of 75% or greater for a scrore of 4, how so? My buddies PP got the same score of prize I 108 with a 3 in track and cooperation so I was really curious. The same judge judged both our dogs at a previous test and didn’t give anyone with less than a 4 in track more than a 3 in cooperation there too, so I was curious what he was seeing. He explained that if a dog doesn’t get a 4 track he generally doesn’t give them a 4 in cooperation because the handler has given them a command they didn’t follow. He never explained how my dog got less than a 75% as that would have been impossible given her performance. He just said to be happy with my score and go on to the next level. I’m not worried about the score, but it doesn’t seem right to me.

By the way, this dog from Oxbow Kennels (Calvinator) is the smartest and best dog I’ve owned to date and I plan to test her in Ocotober at UT level. She will be 1 year and 7 months and I think she would have a decent shot at passing it now with a prize of some sort. Hope she shows on test day. You know how that can go sometimes.
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby ryanr » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:55 pm

Urban_Redneck wrote:I wish I knew I could speak to the judges about my pup's score after the scores were announced. Months later, I found out that, although "cooperation" and "desire" are next to "search" and "use of nose" on your card, the pup's cooperation and desire are judged throughout the test day, not just in the field. NAVHDA judging is more nuanced than the handler's score card let's on ;) While I think it was pretty obvious, it would have been nice to know exactly why my pup got 3s in track and cooperation.

As for your pup, dogs mature at different rates. Much of that is dependent on exposure to game, time in the field, and training.


Just prior to reading the scores, every judging team at every test I've ever been to, volunteered at or run a dog in has always made a point to say that all the senior judge will say that after scores ate read the judges are available to answer questions, discuss scores, etc but once they put the score cards away that's it. Pretty sure it's standard statement for every NAVHDA judging team to make that announcement.

It's always good to speak to the judges after the test, even just briefly. You can gain unbiased insight and advice because let's face it we're all at least a little biased with our own dogs.

People should also consult the Testing Page on the NAVHDA site. If you click on Testing Your Dog and then click on any of the specific tests it will tell you exactly what is specifically judged for each phase of the test and it will also tell you what traits are judged throughout all phases of the test.
Schwarzwald's Hazel, NA 105 Prize 2
Quade vom Buffeltaler, NA 112 Prize 1
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:57 am

JTracyII wrote: The same judge judged both our dogs at a previous test and didn’t give anyone with less than a 4 in track more than a 3 in cooperation there too, so I was curious what he was seeing. He explained that if a dog doesn’t get a 4 track he generally doesn’t give them a 4 in cooperation because the handler has given them a command they didn’t follow. He never explained how my dog got less than a 75% as that would have been impossible given her performance. He just said to be happy with my score and go on to the next level. I’m not worried about the score, but it doesn’t seem right to me.


Doesn't seem right to me either. Good Luck on your Pup's UT. I saw a very nice pup this summer out of Calvin's Kennel.
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Re: Cold water and resistant Griff

Postby JTracyII » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:21 am

AverageGuy wrote:
JTracyII wrote: The same judge judged both our dogs at a previous test and didn’t give anyone with less than a 4 in track more than a 3 in cooperation there too, so I was curious what he was seeing. He explained that if a dog doesn’t get a 4 track he generally doesn’t give them a 4 in cooperation because the handler has given them a command they didn’t follow. He never explained how my dog got less than a 75% as that would have been impossible given her performance. He just said to be happy with my score and go on to the next level. I’m not worried about the score, but it doesn’t seem right to me.


Doesn't seem right to me either. Good Luck on your Pup's UT. I saw a very nice pup this summer out of Calvin's Kennel.


I appreciate it AG. I hopes she does well.
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