Breeding

Genetics, breeding, birth defects, diseases, etc. (No litter listings)

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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:58 am

STait wrote:Here's one of the pups I'm keeping after using your puppy picking method. 5 weeks old and first bird scent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmpsX-V ... e=youtu.be

And a couple minutes later his first point;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPc2k-W ... e=youtu.be


They aren't opening for me....anyone else?
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Re: Breeding

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:02 pm

hicntry wrote:I am not recommending looking for the breed average dog to breed to but it is just as good as breeding to paper. .Picking the best pup is a litter by litter pick. There is no sense in comparing the outcome of different litters. What is being picked is the hardest charging, most confident pup. People are avoiding the best dog because they are too much dog. Why do you have to pick the best of the bunch....because with every breeding the offspring try to slip back to the average on their own. Breeding the stronges, most confident give you a chance at success.....even if you don't care for that pup.

As fare as select traits like nose, the way I would do it is to maybe start with pups out of one of those lines.

Did your practice of selecting the boldest pup lead to a change in form in and of itself, or did temper that practice with more superficial characteristics (taller dogs with a more athletic form?) Is the boldest pup most likely to be the biggest anyway? Or would you periodically see a short and squat one? I can imagine the boldest would be the most likely to get out further and hunt more independently regardless...
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Re: Breeding

Postby JONOV » Mon Dec 18, 2017 5:30 pm

Another thought...

If a puppy buyer is looking for a dog, he has little to go on when looking for the right dog.

Ideally, you get to see the parents or their progeny in action. If what you see is what you want, then the job is easy for you as long as the breeder will sell you a pup, or can have an honest discussion with you as far as who else might be doing that.

Failing that, you have to do your own research and call and talk to breeders. The problem with that is, that plenty of breeders are more interested in selling you one of their puppies whether its what you're looking for or not, than helping you get to the right dog. Not all of them, but enough of them.

Finally, some people are far more data driven than others. I see it in my work, clients that want reports/data/information about the ordering behaviors and results of their orders than you can imagine. I don't totally get what the value of that data is, other than to justify things in the budget/to their superiors, etc... There is certainly value in data. It isn't the end all and be all, but it does have value.

Plenty of people, when buying a house, will look at the historical price data for a neighborhood, for the school system, the data pertinent to the house like the utility bills and when things were replaced.

Before buying a car, they will make a spreadsheet of pros and cons, compare gas mileage, cargo space, resale value, insurance costs...

So before buying a dog, there are plenty of people that will want very defined quantitative value for before committing to a dog they will own and have as a family member long term. Some of them won't take a breeders word that "this litter will produce great puppies" anymore than they trust a Realtor telling them "this is a great neighborhood" or a car salesman telling them "it has good mileage and they hold their value well."

Furthermore, I think that many people don't look at what one title over another actually means. A JH title for a pointing breed doesn't mean much.

Frankly, I got confused looking at the alphabet soup proffered by some breeders and ultimately looked for a breeder that hunted, a lot, with his dogs. He had all sorts of pictures that told me that he hunted a lot locally for wild game, as opposed to a local show breeder that has some very polished shots that are taken at a local game farm.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:45 pm

JONOV wrote:
hicntry wrote:I am not recommending looking for the breed average dog to breed to but it is just as good as breeding to paper. .Picking the best pup is a litter by litter pick. There is no sense in comparing the outcome of different litters. What is being picked is the hardest charging, most confident pup. People are avoiding the best dog because they are too much dog. Why do you have to pick the best of the bunch....because with every breeding the offspring try to slip back to the average on their own. Breeding the stronges, most confident give you a chance at success.....even if you don't care for that pup.

As fare as select traits like nose, the way I would do it is to maybe start with pups out of one of those lines.

Did your practice of selecting the boldest pup lead to a change in form in and of itself, or did temper that practice with more superficial characteristics (taller dogs with a more athletic form?) Is the boldest pup most likely to be the biggest anyway? Or would you periodically see a short and squat one? I can imagine the boldest would be the most likely to get out further and hunt more independently regardless...


The form of my dogs was the first hurdle because if they couldn't cover big ground they wouldn't work for me.At this point I was like every other beginner and I had no clue about things I talk about today....like how and why it is crucial to pick only the top pup out of a litter for breeding. At that that point I didn't know either. The form of my dogs was due to "form follows function". If you want running dogs then run them so you can pickem.....don't guess at what will work....find out what works.
Last edited by hicntry on Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Breeding

Postby STait » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:26 pm

hicntry wrote:
STait wrote:Here's one of the pups I'm keeping after using your puppy picking method. 5 weeks old and first bird scent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmpsX-V ... e=youtu.be

And a couple minutes later his first point;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPc2k-W ... e=youtu.be


They aren't opening for me....anyone else?


Opening fine for me, sorry
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Re: Breeding

Postby GRIFF MAN » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:17 am

JONOV wrote:Another thought...

If a puppy buyer is looking for a dog, he has little to go on when looking for the right dog.

Ideally, you get to see the parents or their progeny in action. If what you see is what you want, then the job is easy for you as long as the breeder will sell you a pup, or can have an honest discussion with you as far as who else might be doing that.

Failing that, you have to do your own research and call and talk to breeders. The problem with that is, that plenty of breeders are more interested in selling you one of their puppies whether its what you're looking for or not, than helping you get to the right dog. Not all of them, but enough of them.

Finally, some people are far more data driven than others. I see it in my work, clients that want reports/data/information about the ordering behaviors and results of their orders than you can imagine. I don't totally get what the value of that data is, other than to justify things in the budget/to their superiors, etc... There is certainly value in data. It isn't the end all and be all, but it does have value.

Plenty of people, when buying a house, will look at the historical price data for a neighborhood, for the school system, the data pertinent to the house like the utility bills and when things were replaced.

Before buying a car, they will make a spreadsheet of pros and cons, compare gas mileage, cargo space, resale value, insurance costs...

So before buying a dog, there are plenty of people that will want very defined quantitative value for before committing to a dog they will own and have as a family member long term. Some of them won't take a breeders word that "this litter will produce great puppies" anymore than they trust a Realtor telling them "this is a great neighborhood" or a car salesman telling them "it has good mileage and they hold their value well."

Furthermore, I think that many people don't look at what one title over another actually means. A JH title for a pointing breed doesn't mean much.

Frankly, I got confused looking at the alphabet soup proffered by some breeders and ultimately looked for a breeder that hunted, a lot, with his dogs. He had all sorts of pictures that told me that he hunted a lot locally for wild game, as opposed to a local show breeder that has some very polished shots that are taken at a local game farm.



I don't have an issue with the buyers wanting to get information to base a decision on what pup to get . My issue or the topic was more that the breeders are using this buyer driven mentality to decide on the direction to go for their breeding program. Not sure that is always the right choice.
Is alphabet soup better than meat and potatoes ?
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Re: Breeding

Postby orhunter » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:24 am

I'm on board with what Griff Man said. The product is market driven.
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Re: Breeding

Postby JONOV » Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:38 pm

GRIFF MAN wrote:
JONOV wrote:Another thought...

If a puppy buyer is looking for a dog, he has little to go on when looking for the right dog.

Ideally, you get to see the parents or their progeny in action. If what you see is what you want, then the job is easy for you as long as the breeder will sell you a pup, or can have an honest discussion with you as far as who else might be doing that.

Failing that, you have to do your own research and call and talk to breeders. The problem with that is, that plenty of breeders are more interested in selling you one of their puppies whether its what you're looking for or not, than helping you get to the right dog. Not all of them, but enough of them.

Finally, some people are far more data driven than others. I see it in my work, clients that want reports/data/information about the ordering behaviors and results of their orders than you can imagine. I don't totally get what the value of that data is, other than to justify things in the budget/to their superiors, etc... There is certainly value in data. It isn't the end all and be all, but it does have value.

Plenty of people, when buying a house, will look at the historical price data for a neighborhood, for the school system, the data pertinent to the house like the utility bills and when things were replaced.

Before buying a car, they will make a spreadsheet of pros and cons, compare gas mileage, cargo space, resale value, insurance costs...

So before buying a dog, there are plenty of people that will want very defined quantitative value for before committing to a dog they will own and have as a family member long term. Some of them won't take a breeders word that "this litter will produce great puppies" anymore than they trust a Realtor telling them "this is a great neighborhood" or a car salesman telling them "it has good mileage and they hold their value well."

Furthermore, I think that many people don't look at what one title over another actually means. A JH title for a pointing breed doesn't mean much.

Frankly, I got confused looking at the alphabet soup proffered by some breeders and ultimately looked for a breeder that hunted, a lot, with his dogs. He had all sorts of pictures that told me that he hunted a lot locally for wild game, as opposed to a local show breeder that has some very polished shots that are taken at a local game farm.



I don't have an issue with the buyers wanting to get information to base a decision on what pup to get . My issue or the topic was more that the breeders are using this buyer driven mentality to decide on the direction to go for their breeding program. Not sure that is always the right choice.
Is alphabet soup better than meat and potatoes ?

To answer your question, no, I don't think it is better. I think the best thing is to see dogs from the breeder in action, whether from previous litters, the dam/sire or both, etc, and find a breeder that hunts like you hunt or want to hunt.

I also think that many people, at least initially, don't look into what the alphabet soup means. Some things, like a JH title for a pointing dog, mean very little at all...like a T-Ball participation trophy. Other letters mean a lot more...a FC or VC or Master Hunter is a much higher accomplishment, but you need to make sure its relevant to what you want.

The other problem is that none of it tells you if the dog is likely to have a personality or temperament you want. At the end of the day, you're lucky if you hunt 30 days in a year (most of us anyway) and the dog better be what you want in the living room or the yard.
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Re: Breeding

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:27 am

hicntry wrote:
As I have stated, I have never bred to a titled dog. A recent video I put up of a dog doing a bang up job on pheasants is a bit over 1/2 hunting lines and the other side is all protection dogs. Another example is a pup that is 1/2 my hunting lines and half east German protection lines. A pup from that cross won an international protection title against the European malinois and GSD's at 18 months old. How is that possible if 50% of the line is hunting dogs?? There is something to think about.


I follow IPO (formerly schutzhund) quite a lot. What international title was this? A dog must have passed it's BH, and then can run IPO 1 at 18 months, then IPO 2 at 20, then get IPO 3 to qualify for Nationals. I'm curious what venues this was.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:36 pm

AlaskaMagnum wrote:
hicntry wrote:
As I have stated, I have never bred to a titled dog. A recent video I put up of a dog doing a bang up job on pheasants is a bit over 1/2 hunting lines and the other side is all protection dogs. Another example is a pup that is 1/2 my hunting lines and half east German protection lines. A pup from that cross won an international protection title against the European malinois and GSD's at 18 months old. How is that possible if 50% of the line is hunting dogs?? There is something to think about.


I follow IPO (formerly schutzhund) quite a lot. What international title was this? A dog must have passed it's BH, and then can run IPO 1 at 18 months, then IPO 2 at 20, then get IPO 3 to qualify for Nationals. I'm curious what venues this was.


I suspect that if you followed IPO that closely you would know that it isn't the only game in town. IPO and Schutzhund have different titles because I have a pedigree with both on the same dogs. There is also K9 Pro Sports and PSA just to name two other venues. K9 Pro Sports events are held in the USA, Europe, and Australia.
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Re: Breeding

Postby Meridiandave » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:07 am

.[/quote]


I don't have an issue with the buyers wanting to get information to base a decision on what pup to get . My issue or the topic was more that the breeders are using this buyer driven mentality to decide on the direction to go for their breeding program. Not sure that is always the right choice.
Is alphabet soup better than meat and potatoes ?[/quote]

Griffman, I am Curious. What specific ways do you feel the buyers are driving decisions.
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Re: Breeding

Postby JTracyII » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:03 pm

Meridiandave wrote:.



I don't have an issue with the buyers wanting to get information to base a decision on what pup to get . My issue or the topic was more that the breeders are using this buyer driven mentality to decide on the direction to go for their breeding program. Not sure that is always the right choice.
Is alphabet soup better than meat and potatoes ?[/quote]

Griffman, I am Curious. What specific ways do you feel the buyers are driving decisions.[/quote]

Don't want to speak for Griffman, but the way I see this possibly occurring is when a breeder has two breeding prospects and one gets a 112 in NA and the other gets 105, so the breeder gets rid of the 105 dog because he wants to breed the 112 dog even though he knows that the better hunting dog is the one that happened to fail to perform well on the day of the test. He/she does this because they know what the buyer is most impressed by.
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Re: Breeding

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:05 pm

hicntry wrote:
AlaskaMagnum wrote:
hicntry wrote:
As I have stated, I have never bred to a titled dog. A recent video I put up of a dog doing a bang up job on pheasants is a bit over 1/2 hunting lines and the other side is all protection dogs. Another example is a pup that is 1/2 my hunting lines and half east German protection lines. A pup from that cross won an international protection title against the European malinois and GSD's at 18 months old. How is that possible if 50% of the line is hunting dogs?? There is something to think about.


I follow IPO (formerly schutzhund) quite a lot. What international title was this? A dog must have passed it's BH, and then can run IPO 1 at 18 months, then IPO 2 at 20, then get IPO 3 to qualify for Nationals. I'm curious what venues this was.


I suspect that if you followed IPO that closely you would know that it isn't the only game in town. IPO and Schutzhund have different titles because I have a pedigree with both on the same dogs. There is also K9 Pro Sports and PSA just to name two other venues. K9 Pro Sports events are held in the USA, Europe, and Australia.



There is no more Schutzhund. It's all IPO now. Changed in 2011. PSA is an American thing, though there may be a chapter overseas - it's not real popular. Maybe ring sports but the dog still has to pass BH to do Ring 1.
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Re: Breeding

Postby hicntry » Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:53 pm

USCA (United Schutzhund Club of America) is going strong and anyone here can look it up on line. IPO is run under the FCI if I am not mistaking. The pup that you think I am making stories up about was tested thru K9 Pro Sports(which you failed to mention) and was trained by Butch Cappel.....the originator of K9 Pro Sports. IPO is a sport dog only venue. IPO dogs are run of the mill, equipment trained dogs which are eliminated in K9 Pro Sports for that very reason. Just so you know, I am not blowing smoke like you are.....I don't have to. The dog was tested against European dogs with European judges participating....pretty much makes it international in most peoples books. IPO is a wanna be sport....as Schutzhund has always been a test for breedability.
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Re: Breeding

Postby AlaskaMagnum » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:26 pm

hicntry wrote:USCA (United Schutzhund Club of America) is going strong and anyone here can look it up on line. IPO is run under the FCI if I am not mistaking. The pup that you think I am making stories up about was tested thru K9 Pro Sports(which you failed to mention) and was trained by Butch Cappel.....the originator of K9 Pro Sports. IPO is a sport dog only venue. IPO dogs are run of the mill, equipment trained dogs which are eliminated in K9 Pro Sports for that very reason. Just so you know, I am not blowing smoke like you are.....I don't have to. The dog was tested against European dogs with European judges participating....pretty much makes it international in most peoples books. IPO is a wanna be sport....as Schutzhund has always been a test for breedability.


USCA is for German Shepherd Dogs only, and it's American, and their titles are also IPO now
www.germanshepherddog.com/about/schutzh ... nd-trials/
FCI went to IPO and is international. I have no idea what K9 Pro Sports venue is.
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