Griffon Snob !

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Griffon Snob !

Postby Birddogs » Thu May 11, 2017 1:22 pm

There are a few Facebook pages with the word Griffon in the title.
I have gone through all of these , always asking if this
page is exclusive to Korthals Griffon. No response.There are a few wire faced
dogs with Griffon in their designation . Even the Hunting Wire Hair
Pointing Griffon Page has a melange of cross breeds on it .
I'm still confused how the Cesky Fousek has become the Bohemian
Griffon but I'm sure Chiendog could enlighten me ...
I believe without knowing it, I have become a Korthals
Elitist. I reluctantly went on Facebook when a hunting friend
started a page Canadian Upland Hunting but I was right in my
Initial thoughts about FB . Hairy dogs with cute hats , no shortage .
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby orhunter » Thu May 11, 2017 5:24 pm

Actually it's the other way around in the Czech Republic. The Bohemian Wirehaired Pointing Griffon became the Cesky Fousek. The American "Club" does not want to give up the word Griffon in their name so they picked that to remain exclusive.

Facebook has no rules, expect the worst. My wife follows a Griff Blog, Griffology, that has some very nice looking dogs, some actually hunt. She joined another one that may have been called something like, The Western Hunting Griffon, but hasn't posted anything. Drop the word "hunting." It's Western Griffons.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby Just-a-bird-hunter » Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:31 pm

The Bohemian Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club dogs are Fouseks. They are a satellite club of the Czech Fousek Club. There are some lines of that club with some original Griffon in there: even at that they are over 90% Fousek. Most of the litters offered this year are from Czech Fouseks; save for the line(s) left with a little Griffon in them. From what I have read, the Fousek was one of the founding dogs of the Korthal's Griffon. I don't why those people have to have the word "Griffon" in their title; seems a bit daft to me. But, what do I know!
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby Meridiandave » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:13 pm

orhunter wrote:Facebook has no rules, expect the worst. My wife follows a Griff Blog, Griffology, that has some very nice looking dogs, some actually hunt. She joined another one that may have been called something like, The Western Hunting Griffon, but hasn't posted anything. Drop the word "hunting." It's Western Griffons.


Your confusing two different pages. There is a Western Griffons page and a Hunting Wirehaired Pointing Griffon page. The later is run by George Decosta and has plenty of hunters on that page. It is honestly my favorite page.

If I felt the post was just an honest mistake that would be the end of it., but I feel this is another in a long line of snarky comments by Harvey regarding griff's out west.

Contrary to Harvey's comments, there are plenty of hard hunting good griff's out here. Plenty that are scoring well on hunt tests, and plenty conquering the chukar mountain. A lot of breeders have worked hard to get better genetics in their dogs out here, even if they are not NAHVDA breeders. I know in the last ten years there has neen an infusion of blood from both French and Midwestern lines.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby GRIFF MAN » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:05 am

When I read on the Griffology page awhile back that some lady was informing the following she was happy about some breeder who was breeding to "really nice Griffon pets" and the litter should make great house pets. Of course, I had to open my big mouth and ask about hunt test scores, or what they hunt ....oh boy I did it ! I was informed to come out of the cave and that not all Griffs need to hunt to be worthy to breed....about lost it.
Or when I was told that the show ring, not the field ability was a the most important decisions in breeding a Griff....

I give up. I'll keep hangin up on people that inquire about a pup, that dont' hunt !

I am a Griff snob....and proud of it !!


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GRIFF MAN * LOVING LIFE AND MY GRIFF!

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Wirehaired Pointing Griffons
www.aspenglokennel.com
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby JONOV » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:37 pm

The thing about breeding dogs is...that everyone has a different opinion about which baby should get thrown out with which bath.

In this country, for better AND for worse (and I truly mean that,) there are few rules (if any) on who can breed what within a breed.

That’s good and bad.

Conformation has a place...but what role it plays is bound to be different between different buyers, breeders, etc...

The one thing that dedicated show breeders have for them is usually generations of health certain...

The flip side is how many hunters, or even pet owners, could give two chits about bone structure, gait, or head shape? As long as the dog doesn’t resemble a possum, who cares?

The german systems have the benefit that a 12 o’clock rail is totally irrelevant, as is a dog hard wired to sprint to the horizon..but I’ve heard enough to know that the various breed clubs, (VDD-gna, VDk, Klm...) cause their own set of problems, and can easily be the cause of a breeds failure to thrive.

I’m not convinced that one system is better than the other...no duck hunter should have a problem finding a good laborador...no one struggles to find a well bred GSP...or Vizsla or Brittany or Setter.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby orhunter » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:02 pm

Dave:

Thanks for the clarification. Figured I mess it up. Wife is the one who pays attention to that stuff. Have tried to get her to post but she won't.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby flitecontrol » Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:05 pm

Just-a-bird-hunter wrote: I don't why those people have to have the word "Griffon" in their title; seems a bit daft to me. But, what do I know!


When one breed is outcrossed, with another, the foundation breed's name is retained. It's why Pudelpointers aren't called Pointers, even though they may have more Pointer than Pudel blood. Bodo Winterhelt, the man largely responsible for popularizing the PP in North America, outcrossed with what he considered exceptional Pointers. He might have used Pudels too, if that breed had been available and had dogs worthy of breeding. While I don't know if modern European PP breeders have done the same, it would be reasonable to assume they would if they felt the need. What most people recognize as versatile breeds were an amalgamation of many dogs from various existing types. I'm not sure the Europeans are as "breed blind" as many North Americans seem to be.

This may stir up a hornet's nest, but the quality of WPG in North America wasn't great, which is why the only WPG breed club at the time decided to outcross with Fouseks. Before someone breaks out the tar and feathers, let me acknowledge that there were a number of WPG that were good hunters. But there were too many with poor coats, temperament issues, and other problems. The European WPG breeders were dealing with the same issues and understandably didn't want to send their best dogs to North America to help the breed there. Those who felt the WPG was fine they way it was, formed their own club and continued to breed "purebred" WPG, which, given the breed's history, is a misnomer.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby JONOV » Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:51 pm

Just-a-bird-hunter wrote: I don't why those people have to have the word "Griffon" in their title; seems a bit daft to me. But, what do I know!
Because it denotes a subtype. AFAIK, "Griffon" denotes a phenotype in coat...Like saying "Shorthaired" or "wirehaired." So, there is the Brussels Griffon, which is a toy breed with a shaggy coat and beard, a Basset scenthound Griffon of some sort in AKC, looks like a Griff coat on a basset hound, etc...So in a way it isn't unlike saying "wirehaired Fox Terrier" or "wirehaired Dahshund." The FCI lumps them in with the Griff and Spinone on group 7.3.

How much of a "Spaniel" is a boykin (vs a retriever?) See what I mean? I also think some of it is awkwardness in translation. Do you or don't you want to get involved in a "DD vs GWP" debate, etc, etc. And you also have "Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer," "Wirehaired Vizsla," etc...

flitecontrol wrote:
When one breed is outcrossed, with another, the foundation breed's name is retained. It's why Pudelpointers aren't called Pointers, even though they may have more Pointer than Pudel blood. Bodo Winterhelt, the man largely responsible for popularizing the PP in North America, outcrossed with what he considered exceptional Pointers. He might have used Pudels too, if that breed had been available and had dogs worthy of breeding. While I don't know if modern European PP breeders have done the same, it would be reasonable to assume they would if they felt the need. What most people recognize as versatile breeds were an amalgamation of many dogs from various existing types. I'm not sure the Europeans are as "breed blind" as many North Americans seem to be.
Is that the case? I've never seen a pedigree so I guess its hard to say. If you bought a PP from a Bodo litter after he left NAVHDA would NAVHDA register it? Would FDSB register it? FCI?

Also, Bob Farris in his interview with the Hunting Dog Podcast said the Pudel was likely the Barbet.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby flitecontrol » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:12 pm

JONOV wrote:Is that the case? I've never seen a pedigree so I guess its hard to say. If you bought a PP from a Bodo litter after he left NAVHDA would NAVHDA register it? Would FDSB register it? FCI?

Also, Bob Farris in his interview with the Hunting Dog Podcast said the Pudel was likely the Barbet.


When the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America (WPGCA) chose to outcross with Fouseks, NAVHDA refused to recognize any dogs from Griffon/Fousek breedings. Yet Bodo's outcrossed dogs were never questioned by NAVHDA. Seemed pretty hypocritical to a lot of folks, including Ed Bailey, one of the founders of NAVDA. He wrote a very strong letter of resignation to the organization. Wish I still had a copy, and could remember the name of the NAVHDA official who was responsible for the decision. I didn't know Bodo had split with NAVHDA, but that may have been the reason he left. I'll see if Ed Bailey knows and report back. All in all, a sad example of politics at its worst IMO. The WPGCA set up their own registry.

I can't remember the name of the individual that set forth the principle of developing one of the versatile breeds (DD?) but it went something like this: "Breed as you see fit, but be open about what you breed with."

I don't think anyone knows for sure what a Pudel was. It could have been a predecessor of the Barbet, the Barbet, or something else.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby Sooty42 » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:08 am

I read Joan Bailey’s book Griffon Gun Dog Supreme and it did not sound like the outcrossing with the fousek went well in the beginning. Quite a few health problems with the Griffs and the Fouseks that they decided to use. Not sure how it is going now, but the beginnings of them trying to improve the breed did not seem to go well.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby flitecontrol » Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:29 am

I had a dog out of one of the first Griffon/Fousek breedings. Great conformation, terrific nose, lots of drive, loved to swim, and was (usually) a great retriever. His weak area was retrieving ducks from swimming depth water. Ducks in shallow water were no problem, but for some reason he wouldn't consistently retrieve them from deeper water. When Joan Bailey judged him in Intermediate, and, as expected, he failed the retrieve of duck, she felt it was a reflection of the Griffon dam, not the Fousek sire. That sire had taken top honors in the European test/competition (not sure what it was called) the year before he was brought to the U.S. None of my dog's littermates had the same water problem, but a few had other issues. Other pups this sire produced did well, so I suspect Joan's evaluation was correct.

As stated in an earlier post, there weren't many good Griffons available for breeding. The club, through its approved breeding program, had significantly improved the overall quality of the pups that came out of that program, but there just weren't enough of those dogs to sustain a genetically viable population. Hence the Fousek outcross. I know some of the Fouseks brought to this country had mild hip displaysia. Not sure, but I seem to recall that none of the European breed clubs were having hip X-rays done back then.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby JONOV » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:44 am

flitecontrol wrote:
JONOV wrote:Is that the case? I've never seen a pedigree so I guess its hard to say. If you bought a PP from a Bodo litter after he left NAVHDA would NAVHDA register it? Would FDSB register it? FCI?

Also, Bob Farris in his interview with the Hunting Dog Podcast said the Pudel was likely the Barbet.


When the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America (WPGCA) chose to outcross with Fouseks, NAVHDA refused to recognize any dogs from Griffon/Fousek breedings. Yet Bodo's outcrossed dogs were never questioned by NAVHDA. Seemed pretty hypocritical to a lot of folks, including Ed Bailey, one of the founders of NAVDA. He wrote a very strong letter of resignation to the organization. Wish I still had a copy, and could remember the name of the NAVHDA official who was responsible for the decision. I didn't know Bodo had split with NAVHDA, but that may have been the reason he left. I'll see if Ed Bailey knows and report back. All in all, a sad example of politics at its worst IMO. The WPGCA set up their own registry.

I can't remember the name of the individual that set forth the principle of developing one of the versatile breeds (DD?) but it went something like this: "Breed as you see fit, but be open about what you breed with."

I don't think anyone knows for sure what a Pudel was. It could have been a predecessor of the Barbet, the Barbet, or something else.

It was in the latest NAVHDA magazine, in an article by Bob Farris. Bodo, at the 97 NAVHDA International meeting demanded they do away with the registry and the Invitational. He felt the registry allowed irresponsible breeders, and diminished the influence of breed clubs and would be their undoing, and felt that the invitational would lead to a focus on breeding based on VC status as opposed to NA and UT scores. They said no, and he left. Politics at its worst, is right.
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby flitecontrol » Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:12 pm

JONOV wrote:

It was in the latest NAVHDA magazine, in an article by Bob Farris. Bodo, at the 97 NAVHDA International meeting demanded they do away with the registry and the Invitational. He felt the registry allowed irresponsible breeders, and diminished the influence of breed clubs and would be their undoing, and felt that the invitational would lead to a focus on breeding based on VC status as opposed to NA and UT scores. They said no, and he left. Politics at its worst, is right.[/quote]

Thanks for posting that. I didn't know why Bodo left. It's unfortunate that the vision of the founders of a good system seems to get lost with new folks at the helm. That's what happened to the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America after Joan Bailey turned the reins over to others. It should be about breeding better dogs, period.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Griffon Snob !

Postby flitecontrol » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:07 pm

flitecontrol wrote:
JONOV wrote:Is that the case? I've never seen a pedigree so I guess its hard to say. If you bought a PP from a Bodo litter after he left NAVHDA would NAVHDA register it? Would FDSB register it? FCI?

Also, Bob Farris in his interview with the Hunting Dog Podcast said the Pudel was likely the Barbet.


When the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon Club of America (WPGCA) chose to outcross with Fouseks, NAVHDA refused to recognize any dogs from Griffon/Fousek breedings. Yet Bodo's outcrossed dogs were never questioned by NAVHDA. Seemed pretty hypocritical to a lot of folks, including Ed Bailey, one of the founders of NAVDA. He wrote a very strong letter of resignation to the organization. Wish I still had a copy, and could remember the name of the NAVHDA official who was responsible for the decision. I didn't know Bodo had split with NAVHDA, but that may have been the reason he left. I'll see if Ed Bailey knows and report back. All in all, a sad example of politics at its worst IMO. The WPGCA set up their own registry.

I can't remember the name of the individual that set forth the principle of developing one of the versatile breeds (DD?) but it went something like this: "Breed as you see fit, but be open about what you breed with."

I don't think anyone knows for sure what a Pudel was. It could have been a predecessor of the Barbet, the Barbet, or something else.


Got an email from Ed and he confirmed what had earlier been posted about why Bodo quit NAVHDA. Namely, he didn't like where the organization was headed, to wit the registry. When his efforts to get rid of it fell short by one or two votes, he left. Ed quit as mentioned above, but, like Bodo, was also seeing where things were headed; the registry, invitational, and the move toward AKC and American Field type trials.

It should be about breeding the best dogs possible, not about money or power, or politics, or competition, or producing enough pups to meet demand.
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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