West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:06 am

GoneHunting Thank You .
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Urban_Redneck » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:29 am

CZfan107 wrote:
Urban_Redneck wrote:It's great that you go to training days prior to getting a pup, it allows you to really watch what is going on without the distraction having your own pup with you. Watch as many dogs and handlers as you can and get a feel for who's dog runs like you'd like see your run.

Every NAVHDA chapter is different, read "Training with Mo" and perhaps after, buy the video (IMHO the video is worthless without the book). What you may find is your (Mo's) idea on how to train a dog is different than the training cadre at your chapter. Some NAVHDA folk seemingly treat field work as an obedience function- heavy on correction prior to flush, I call it "scared steady". That is the opposite of the G-W method. It works for some dogs, but, not for all. Be consistent with your pup. If you G-W for three weekends, then change methods on the fourth (NAVHDA), on the fifth you are starting over.

What breed are you getting? Best of luck.



Urban Redneck
I agree with you 100% on difference with NAVHDA Training and West Method. I am getting a Pudelpointer and promised Breeder i would NA Test and i will. After that i will train using West/Gibson/mo Method . Do you have any idea where i can can find this DVD?
West/Gibbons 3 day seminar may 1, 2005 dvd's.
Any help would be appreciated .
Thanks CZ


You can buy the 2016 seminar video from steadywithstyle.com

There's no reason not to train G-W from the start, I didn't. Just practice saying, "yeah, we don't do that" with a smile, when well meaning folk want you to whoa your dog into a bird. Don't worry it doesn't make you a bad NAVHDAer :) Again, use the time you have before pup arrives to identify folks that train the way that aligns with your sensibilities, you may find them slinking off to an alternate field ;)
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:22 am

Urban Redneck has some good advice concerning NAVHDA training days. I used to volunteer for the training days and they had me teaching stuff I wouldn't do ("yea, we don't do that") with my own dog which became a conflict. "Doesn't make you a bad NAVHDAer."

GH is a pretty sharp guy too. Lots of sharp guys here on V-Dogs. Everyone has something to contribute. Sort out what suits you.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby ryanr » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:09 am

I basically agree with Urban Redneck and as he and Gonehunting also said, i think you're doing it right by joining and attending NAVHDA training days long before getting a pup. I wish I had done that. And there are a number of guys in NAVHDA chapters using the West-Gibbons-Lindley method or slight variations of it.

NAVHDA chapter's are simply groups of people helping each other train their versatile hunting dogs. There is no hard and fast NAVHDA rules for training, there are some obstinate folks that think all dogs, round or square, get hammered into the same hole. Just about every chapter has one or two of these blowhards unfortunately. Simply ignore them and train with the folks in your chapter that train like you do OR are willing to help you train your dog in the manner you wish- as it's supposed to be. It won't take you too much time to figure out who's who. Right now, the best thing you can do is volunteer to help as many people as you can at training days. Be friendly but keep mostly quiet during field work, observe and learn. Offer to carry equipment, bag birds, whatever. The best handlers will see your willingness to help and desire to learn and they in turn will likely want to help you when you get your pup. The guy that just wants to be in charge of everything or gives harsh corrections for everything is usually the one you'll end up avoiding when it comes to training your pup.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:49 pm

Great advice from all and well taken. I just volunteered for a WMA cleanup Sunday to get to know different people in my NAVHDA group.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby PL_Guy » Mon Mar 12, 2018 10:03 pm

CZfan107 wrote:... Do you have any idea where i can can find this DVD?
West/Gibbons 3 day seminar may 1, 2005 dvd's.
Any help would be appreciated .
Thanks CZ


Brad was selling those dvds back in the day and another set of dvds of a seminar he and Mo did at martha Greenlee's kennel in 2008. Try Brad at www.HigginsGundogs.com first. PM me if he can't help. I'll check around..

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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby CZfan107 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:23 pm

PL_Guy wrote:
CZfan107 wrote:... Do you have any idea where i can can find this DVD?
West/Gibbons 3 day seminar may 1, 2005 dvd's.
Any help would be appreciated .
Thanks CZ


Brad was selling those dvds back in the day and another set of dvds of a seminar he and Mo did at martha Greenlee's kennel in 2008. Try Brad at http://www.HigginsGundogs.com first. PM me if he can't help. I'll check around..

Jere



I have Maurice Lindley 2016 Seminar. I looked on HigginsGundog.com for the older Seminar version i think i was 2008 but NG maybe he stoped selling them.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:25 am

CZfan107 wrote:
PL_Guy wrote:
CZfan107 wrote:... Do you have any idea where i can can find this DVD?
West/Gibbons 3 day seminar may 1, 2005 dvd's.
Any help would be appreciated .
Thanks CZ


Brad was selling those dvds back in the day and another set of dvds of a seminar he and Mo did at martha Greenlee's kennel in 2008. Try Brad at http://www.HigginsGundogs.com first. PM me if he can't help. I'll check around..

Jere



I have Maurice Lindley 2016 Seminar. I looked on HigginsGundog.com for the older Seminar version i think i was 2008 but NG maybe he stoped selling them.
Thanks


So contact him through his site (link after this sentence) and ask if he still has the earlier DVDs! http://higginsgundogs.com/contact/
Contact me if that doesn't work for you.

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So much to learn, So little time!
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby huntindog1 » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:04 am

A While back I watched some of the Chad Hines Willow Creek youtube videos. He uses some of the clicker training. I have been training bird dogs since the early 1980's. Trying something new like clicker training sounded interesting. I did a little research on it and some say it speeds training up 50% . I am not sure it does that but after using it on my last 3 pups I have worked with I am convinced it does speeds things up alot. I wont go into the details here but if your interested check out some of the youtube videos on clicker training. Some just use the word"YES" in a real positive way. The click or the word are associated first with something very positive like a treat. The better the treat the better it works. I used to use a piece of dog food but high quality treats work even better as it increases the desire to get the extra good treat.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby Deacon » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:06 am

I agree with you 100% on difference with NAVHDA Training and West Method


As somebody who is rapidly approaching two decades in NAVHDA, testing multiple dogs at both the NA and UT level I don't believe there is a NAVHDA way of training. Maybe in the old days the Green Book, could have been considered the "NAVHDA Way", but that day is over, or at least it is in the circle of NAVHDA friends I work with. In our chapter we have people with field trialing backgrounds, retriever backgrounds, newbies, NAVHDA only people, NAVHDA/AKC hunt test people, and people who have done a bit of everything. Most of us train differently but we all work towards the same goals.

"Scared Steady" is a great term! The best dog trainer I ever met, Dan Burjan, once told me that anybody can make a dog stand steady. It takes talent to make them stand there and look like a million dollars. I can't stand seeing a dog let down as the handler approaches, anticipating a correction. That dog may get a 4 in steadiness at the test, but it would never pass muster in a field trial or with me.

Preparation for the NA test is not difficult, especially if you have a pudelpointer. Show the dog as many birds as you can, but don't let it catch the birds, get the dog bumper crazy by playing with him, and, if possible, show the dog a few pheasants before the test. Most of all, have fun preparing for it. There aren't many things in this world more fun or worthwhile than working with a puppy.
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby AverageGuy » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:23 am

Deacon wrote:
I agree with you 100% on difference with NAVHDA Training and West Method


As somebody who is rapidly approaching two decades in NAVHDA, testing multiple dogs at both the NA and UT level I don't believe there is a NAVHDA way of training. Maybe in the old days the Green Book, could have been considered the "NAVHDA Way", but that day is over, or at least it is in the circle of NAVHDA friends I work with. In our chapter we have people with field trialing backgrounds, retriever backgrounds, newbies, NAVHDA only people, NAVHDA/AKC hunt test people, and people who have done a bit of everything. Most of us train differently but we all work towards the same goals.

"Scared Steady" is a great term! The best dog trainer I ever met, Dan Burjan, once told me that anybody can make a dog stand steady. It takes talent to make them stand there and look like a million dollars. I can't stand seeing a dog let down as the handler approaches, anticipating a correction. That dog may get a 4 in steadiness at the test, but it would never pass muster in a field trial or with me.

Preparation for the NA test is not difficult, especially if you have a pudelpointer. Show the dog as many birds as you can, but don't let it catch the birds, get the dog bumper crazy by playing with him, and, if possible, show the dog a few pheasants before the test. Most of all, have fun preparing for it. There aren't many things in this world more fun or worthwhile than working with a puppy.


RIght on!
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Re: West method training & the NAVHDA NA Test

Postby orhunter » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:26 am

Deacon: Good post. Nothing is more difficult to see than a dog that has been over handled/trained. Takes the life out of them.
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