E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby Constructeur » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:46 pm

You still feel qualified to tell me I'm wrong without seeing how my dog is, how we hunt, any of it. I've been on here long enough to see at least as much garbage 'insight' as helpful. Seeing as how he's 4.5 now, and an absolute war hammer of a dog, we're going to continue doing things the wrong way.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:41 am

Success with one dog doesn't make you right. If you'd read some dog training material you'd see that your premise is incorrect. It doesn't matter how good your dog is or where you hunt. Your training concept is not correct.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:41 am

Success with one dog doesn't make you right. If you'd read some dog training material you'd see that your premise is incorrect. It doesn't matter how good your dog is or where you hunt. Your training concept is not correct.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby booger » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:02 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:
Constructeur wrote:My dog is a total meathead, and we have to do everything the hard way. I just thought training vibe as a positive was a way to break that up for him. It started when he was young and we would just toss bumpers, he'd retrieve the bumper, get lots of vocal praise and a vibration. We built on it from there.


I don't like the collar telling the dog he's good. Nor do I think a dog needs any praise until the job is completed. When a dog completes the task, I want him to know I AM THE ONE PRAISING HIM, not some mechanical collar. I want the correction to come from me and the praise to come from me.

Dog's need no praise WHILE COMPLETING A TASK, only when it is complete.


I've found that to be completely untrue with my dog. She needs lots of encouragement to do a new task, she does better with encouragement before the task is completed to be reassured she's doing the right thing. I've used a clicker sometimes but nearly always use food treats.

My dog gets marginally excited if I just tell her good girl and pet her as a reward after she does the desired action.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby booger » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:08 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:Success with one dog doesn't make you right. If you'd read some dog training material you'd see that your premise is incorrect. It doesn't matter how good your dog is or where you hunt. Your training concept is not correct.


If the training is working for him and his dog, then how could you say his training concept is not correct?

Each dog requires different training and I would argue success with one dog is exactly what you're looking for. Now it might only work for his dog or for very few, but to say the guy is incorrect for doing something that works for him, is well, incorrect.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:48 pm

I didn't say he was incorrect, I said his premise was and it is and so is yours.
If a dog is properly trained in an orderly sequence, the dog understands that praise comes and completion of the task not before or during.

What do you do if you praise your dog then it quits and doesn't do it?

There is a reason trainers do things in a sequential pattern and it has been developed over a good many years now. Just because it works for one dog doesn't mean it will work for two.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 6:49 pm

There's nothing wrong with "praising" (Positive reinforcement) completion of individual segments of a behavior chain. There's nothing wrong with pairing vibration or tone with an intrinsic positive reinforcer (or even another conditioned reinforcer) making it a conditioned reinforcer. If paired with verbal praise the dog "enjoys" it will function just as the verbal does in so far as increasing the frequency of the praised behavior. That is essentially what clicker trainers do. The proof of one's training techniques comes in measurement of results - do the behaviors you want increase in frequency, do the undesired behaviors decrease? If so, your technique is "working," if not you need to try something else.

Where the dog "believes" the reinforcement (positive or negative) comes from is not as important as the dog's response to it is. This is really a pretty big subject.

As I said in an earlier post I learned to use low-level ec as a cue (neither positive of negative reinforcement. The dog finds it neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It is neutral!). But higher levels are clearly unpleasant to the dog and constitute positive punishment. I gave up on ec as negative reinforcement (as the ear pinch in ff is used) a long time ago.

I don't hesitate to use ec on a dog when it flushes a bird it had been pointing but doubt I'll get much support for that here...

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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:03 pm

PL_Guy wrote:There's nothing wrong with "praising" (Positive reinforcement) completion of individual segments of a behavior chain. There's nothing wrong with pairing vibration or tone with an intrinsic positive reinforcer (or even another conditioned reinforcer) making it a conditioned reinforcer. If paired with verbal praise the dog "enjoys" it will function just as the verbal does in so far as increasing the frequency of the praised behavior. That is essentially what clicker trainers do. The proof of one's training techniques comes in measurement of results - do the behaviors you want increase in frequency, do the undesired behaviors decrease? If so, your technique is "working," if not you need to try something else.

Where the dog "believes" the reinforcement (positive or negative) comes from is not as important as the dog's response to it is. This is really a pretty big subject.

As I said in an earlier post I learned to use low-level ec as a cue (neither positive of negative reinforcement. The dog finds it neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It is neutral!). But higher levels are clearly unpleasant to the dog and constitute positive punishment. I gave up on ec as negative reinforcement (as the ear pinch in ff is used) a long time ago.

I don't hesitate to use ec on a dog when it flushes a bird it had been pointing but doubt I'll get much support for that here...

Jere


The first sentence is the most important part of your post. The rest of your post I don't understand. Positive punishment? I really doubt you ever truly understood the collar.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: E Collar —> Stimulation or Vibration

Postby PL_Guy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:26 pm

"Positive punishment" - Dog responds in a manner you do not want - you zap him. Dog is less likely to respond improperly next time (Punishment decreases unwanted behavior)

"Negative punishment" - Dog is sitting at heal, really wants the retrieve, Bird boy throws mark, Dog breaks, Bird boy picks up bird (Punishing dog for breaking by denying it the retrieve) Dog less likely to break next time. (punishment)

"Negative reinforcement" - Create an unpleasant or even painful condition for the dog, Give command, Remove unpleasantness when dog complies properly. Dog is more likely to (more rapidly) properly respond in the future (reinforcement increases desired behavior)

"Positive reinforcement" - should be obvious.

Jere
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So much to learn, So little time!
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