Dew Claws

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Re: Dew Claws

Postby ryanr » Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:58 pm

Doc E wrote:It's actually very simple.
DO NOT let your dog go on ice that might break through.
Then it doesn't matter if they have dew claws or not.

Also, even were it so, how would that explain a nine week old puppy (who's never even been swimming in his life) being able to pull himself out using his dew claws
And anyone who would let a 9 week old puppy go in ice water is 100% certifiably nuts !
If I saw someone doing this, first I'd smack the crap out of them and then throw them into ice water and tell them to pronate their wrists and pull themselves out with their thumbs.
.


What's life like in Doc's Perfect World? :lol: I don't know about your dogs but when I'm in the field with mine they aren't under my visual control at all times.

As for dew claws,my lab had them, never had any problems,and and absolutely used them for help in "grasping" things between his paws and also used them for traction help for things like traversing steep hillsides. He also used them to help pull himself out of icy water once while we were hiking up in the White.Mountains National Forest. He also learned a valuable lesson that day about ice.

My Drahthaar doesn't have them and neither does my GWP though originally my breeders had given serious thought to leaving them on this litter.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby ForestDump » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:05 am

ryanr wrote:
Doc E wrote:It's actually very simple.
DO NOT let your dog go on ice that might break through.
Then it doesn't matter if they have dew claws or not.

Also, even were it so, how would that explain a nine week old puppy (who's never even been swimming in his life) being able to pull himself out using his dew claws
And anyone who would let a 9 week old puppy go in ice water is 100% certifiably nuts !
If I saw someone doing this, first I'd smack the crap out of them and then throw them into ice water and tell them to pronate their wrists and pull themselves out with their thumbs.
.


What's life like in Doc's Perfect World? :lol: I don't know about your dogs but when I'm in the field with mine they aren't under my visual control at all times.

As for dew claws,my lab had them, never had any problems,and and absolutely used them for help in "grasping" things between his paws and also used them for traction help for things like traversing steep hillsides. He also used them to help pull himself out of icy water once while we were hiking up in the White.Mountains National Forest. He also learned a valuable lesson that day about ice.

My Drahthaar doesn't have them and neither does my GWP though originally my breeders had given serious thought to leaving them on this litter.


How do the other two do with grasping and hiking without their dews?
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby hicntry » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:34 am

"How do the other two do with grasping and hiking without their dews?"

Dogs without dewclaws can survive in today's world because they are fed out of a bowl and people are afraid to get around ice. Doesn't take away from the fact that they are there for a purpose. Biggest downside to dewclaws is when the dogs jump on the owners the dewclaws can and will take a long deep chunk of flesh out of the owner. Gotta train those dogs....man up.....or take the dewclaws off.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:12 pm

For some no explanation is necessary. For others no explanation will suffice
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby slistoe » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:18 pm

hicntry wrote:"How do the other two do with grasping and hiking without their dews?"

Dogs without dewclaws can survive in today's world because they are fed out of a bowl and people are afraid to get around ice. Doesn't take away from the fact that they are there for a purpose. Biggest downside to dewclaws is when the dogs jump on the owners the dewclaws can and will take a long deep chunk of flesh out of the owner. Gotta train those dogs....man up.....or take the dewclaws off.

Biggest downside to dewclaws I have seen is neglectful owners - of which there are scads and scads of them. Cockers and Toy Poodles were the worst ones for coming in with dew claws that were ingrown and infected to the point that medical intervention from a vet was required.
Did a lot of hunting with the labs years back before any of this too-doo about dews was around. Never gave it any thought about how ever was the dog to get out of the water - sent the dog for ducks, geese, muskrats and beaver in fall and spring ice. The dog always went out and came back with what it was sent for - don't know how she did it without dew claws :?: Only time I got real worried was when a 40 lb beaver came back to life just before the dog got there - the beaver dove under the ice and the dog followed. That was the worst few minutes of my life waiting to see if the dog was going to show again 100 yards out - when she did surface she had the beaver in tow.
Anyway, I have never seen a dog handicapped in it's ability to do anything that I may ask of it for lack of dew claws (or that they may want to do such as holding carrots, peas and corn cobs to eat from the garden) and have been witness to a number of incidences from minor to major where dogs with dew claws have injured them. For the few seconds and the tiny bit of super glue it takes to remove them at 2 days old they will be coming off all litters I breed.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby hicntry » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:39 pm

Here is something for everyone to try. Get a fresh killed rabbit or squirrel that has the hide intact. Get a hold of it with both hands and try to rip it apart. I bet there is not one person here that could rip the hide apart. That is why all coyotes, wolves and foxes have dews.....their only option would be to lay there and gnaw on small game rather than being efficient.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby hicntry » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:28 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:For some no explanation is necessary. For others no explanation will suffice


+1
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby ryanr » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:01 pm

hicntry wrote:"How do the other two do with grasping and hiking without their dews?"

Dogs without dewclaws can survive in today's world because they are fed out of a bowl and people are afraid to get around ice. Doesn't take away from the fact that they are there for a purpose. Biggest downside to dewclaws is when the dogs jump on the owners the dewclaws can and will take a long deep chunk of flesh out of the owner. Gotta train those dogs....man up.....or take the dewclaws off.


To answer ForestDumps question they seem to get by fine but there's definitely a difference in keeping something, like a chew item, between there paws. Not that it's really difficult for them but it was certainly easier for my Labrador. And yes, those dew claws can certainly do a number on an owner.

As for people being afraid to get around ice with their dogs, not everybody fits into your characterization. In fact, with my Labrador he lived with me in the mountains of New Hampshire and I happen to believe in having dogs learn thru experience how to exist in their surroundings, instead of keeping them protected or sheltered from it. But ya gotta try to be smart about it. He first fell thru that ice because he didn't listen. I knew it wasn't quite strong enough but it was a pool in mountain stream so I knew I could get him out if need be. He ignored by cautionary No and ended up falling thru. Two lessons were learned: how to claw and climb out and also that bad things can happen by ignoring the boss's No. Actually 3 things because he learned to be cautious around ice. He was a smart dog and learned lessons quickly. My pup reminds me of him. My 5yr old male, not so much. His drive overrides his brain too much.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby JONOV » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:54 pm

I tend towards the "They are there for a reason" side but I don't think its much to get excited about one way or another...

Its one of those things, that in the absence of a preponderance of evidence supporting one position vs. another, its really hard to say.

You can argue that they are an accident waiting to happen, and there are some people that have had such accidents...

You can argue that removal inhibits their agility/stability/ability to climb or pull and causes carpal arthritis, and people have anecdotes that prove this as well...

But plenty of labs have them removed and you don't hear about them getting swept away left and right...

It does seem that not all dew claws are created equal. Some people talk about having to keep them well trimmed to prevent problems. I don't have that experience. Could be that they are just naturally tighter and more compact on my dog?

I've had minor injuries on my dog's feet/toes before, but nothing on the dew claws, aside from a cut from an oyster bed on the dew claw pad, but he had 6 different cuts from running through that particular bed.

If you're looking for good information one way or another, an N of 1 means nothing statistically. I think you would need to find a vet with many years of records, that could count dew claw injuries compared to other toes and make sure she was adjusting to only include dogs with dew claws.

Also, anyone ever looked at a Great Pyrenese toe? Gross looking, but they have to be removed, I think they're connected by a bone, specifically to move up and down Alpine pastures...
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby hicntry » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:31 pm

Bruce Schwartz wrote:For some no explanation is necessary. For others no explanation will suffice


+2
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby oldtimer » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:34 pm

My DD uses her dew claws to scratch her head, and get seeds out of the corner of her eyes.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:11 pm

This topic came up a while back. I have seen a torn dewclaw on a dog. The video I thought was somewhat persuasive. So i asked my vet.

He said he does see them. the issue is this. IF they do tear one. They are difficult to get healed as the dog has ready access to the site.

I wouldn't fault anyone for leaving them on, but I might be the first to say, I told you so!

Doc I liked your post!
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby blue04 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:55 am

For me and my dogs, I think the likelihood of a dog ripping a dew claw is much higher than falling into the ice and needing them to pull out. It's a factor of where we live and how we hunt. So it's a no-brainer to remove them for me. To each his own.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:40 am

I posed the question on a couple of Houndsmen boards as to: Do you leave dew claws intact on your dogs and if so have you experienced any injuries? Responses varied. Several guys said they had run hounds for 40-50 years without serious incident to their intact dew claws. And several said they had experienced injuries such that they would never again leave them on their dogs. Seems the rate of injury was low but those who have experienced one are immediately convinced NEVER AGAIN.

My prior GWP was always bold and seemingly clueless about dangerous ice. He would run out on it with no regard for his safety if something was of interest out there. I was the control feature and I kept him away from unsafe waterfowling ice conditions. But like all dogs hunting upland birds in heavy cover he was out of sight alot and in new country neither of us knew were all the ponds were.

Neither option is without some risk.
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Re: Dew Claws

Postby hicntry » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:41 am

Personally, after reading the latest threads, I find myself wondering why most of you don't just get yourself a nice stuffed dogs that you can keep safely on a shelf. Looks like both actual hunters and real hunting dogs are on their way out.
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