NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

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NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby KJ » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:02 pm

Any thoughts on why DNA testing is required for utility Breeder Awards (or VCs or VC Breeder Awards)? I really struggle to see the point.

I recently noticed that one of our litters from a few years ago qualified for a Utility Breeder's Award. I submitted the form, then heard back that I would need DNA on the dogs. I am not going to go back and ask the owners to DNA their dogs, so I just dropped it. We have a few other litters that have 2 qualified UT dogs, with the 3rd running this fall that could also qualify for UT Breeder's Award, although I am not sure if I will mess with the DNA. Yeah, it may only be $25 or so (I don't really know), but why require DNA for a performance testing award? NAVHDA isn't American Field with intense competition, or the need to outcross to a pointer to win.

So why? Personally, I think it is dumb idea to require DNA for a performance test award. No, it's not that difficult, but I have a hard time accepting rules that were added to just to be added.

Thoughts?
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby AverageGuy » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:06 am

What is the DNA collection process? Does a vet have to collect and certify which dog it came from? Blood or will hair work? Even if a vet is involved they have no idea if that is the dog which ran and passed the test. Or is the collection required the day of the test on the chance of a future Breeders Award?

Old school here. I remember when we determined a hunting dog's worth by taking it hunting a lot.

Typical of regulation - increase costs and inconvenience to all based on the remote possibility of inappropriate actions of a few ... In this instance it would require collusion of others in order to cheat which makes it seem all the more unlikely and unnecessary.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby gwp4me2 » Thu Aug 17, 2017 1:45 pm

I don't know that it is ever used for anything other than to have on file. To submit the dog owner gets a kit with a brush to do a cheek swab. Then you send your money and the cheek swab in. Done. In fact the last one I did for the invite I had lost the cheek swab brush. I got some of the bristle-type tooth picks and used those. No problem. I don't see a legit need until people start lying about what they are doing.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby Wanderer » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:12 pm

Sounds like the NAVHDA registry is trying to guarantee parentage and genetic lineage. Not a bad thing.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby JONOV » Tue Nov 28, 2017 10:53 am

KJ wrote:Any thoughts on why DNA testing is required for utility Breeder Awards (or VCs or VC Breeder Awards)? I really struggle to see the point.

I recently noticed that one of our litters from a few years ago qualified for a Utility Breeder's Award. I submitted the form, then heard back that I would need DNA on the dogs. I am not going to go back and ask the owners to DNA their dogs, so I just dropped it. We have a few other litters that have 2 qualified UT dogs, with the 3rd running this fall that could also qualify for UT Breeder's Award, although I am not sure if I will mess with the DNA. Yeah, it may only be $25 or so (I don't really know), but why require DNA for a performance testing award? NAVHDA isn't American Field with intense competition, or the need to outcross to a pointer to win.

So why? Personally, I think it is dumb idea to require DNA for a performance test award. No, it's not that difficult, but I have a hard time accepting rules that were added to just to be added.

Thoughts?

One Word: Ego. Pride, vanity and arrogance serve to slay gratitude, lay the foundation for deceit, and ignore established norms that others don't need to be told to abide by.

Parents lie about their kids age for little league. Danny Almonte threw 76 mph as a "12" year old (like 99 MPH from the short distance of the little league mound.) The problem was Danny was 14.

I've been to Crossfit competitions, where there is nothing to gain or win aside from a jug of protein powder, and seen guys competing that were very clearly taking steroids.

I've seen wealthy-ish Technology executives that took up cycling in their 20's, suddenly begin to crush their (amateur) competition as they decide to take the same path Lance Armstrong did, despite having nothing to win or gain except their own pride.

I've seen grown men, multimillionaires no less, cheat in friendly golf matches for $20. I've seen them sandbag the snot out of their handicap in preparation for the annual member-guest tournament.

Have you never seen anyone try and argue with a judge, explain away their dogs performance, feel they were screwed by the testing system? And what does the test really mean? What does a UT I vs a UT II mean to you? The point is to develop your hunting dog, is it not? The point is to evaluate your progress, and the dogs abilities, and the breeding in general, no? Does the Prize I vs the Prize II vs the Prize III really mean you're forced to get rid of the dog, or aren't allowed to hunt with it? No.

So, while it might only mean that a breeder can charge an extra $100 a puppy, having the means to keep people honest makes a lot of sense to me. I can absolutely see a breeder that sees something lacking in his dogs, in his program, and going rogue to correct it or goose the needle in the direction he needs it to. If people will go to great lengths to lie or cheat with no real measurable reward for victory, they will do so when there is a small reward and do so when there is a large reward.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby Urban_Redneck » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:42 am

How many generations back can the test determine an out cross?
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:54 am

This is a "solution" in search of a problem.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby JONOV » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:13 am

AverageGuy wrote:This is a "solution" in search of a problem.

Have you ever heard the term, "locks keep honest men honest?"

That's how I see it.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby AverageGuy » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:44 pm

JONOV wrote:
AverageGuy wrote:This is a "solution" in search of a problem.

Have you ever heard the term, "locks keep honest men honest?"

That's how I see it.


I think that phrase was promoted by locksmiths seeking to sell locks. :D

Honestly I could care less, it has no effect on me and never will. If I cannot trust my Breeder without this regulatory overkill I have done a very poor job of finding the right litter is how I see it.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby Densa44 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:29 pm

I think that its use will be going forward. For example selling people a pup out VC x VC when in fact it is out of 2 other dogs. There have been rumours already of that sort of thing.

Just BTW you fellows all know that other than selling people a healthy pup, it is who is holding the leash that makes a UT1 dog. I say that both as a breeder and trainer.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby Constructeur » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:25 pm

AverageGuy wrote:
JONOV wrote:
AverageGuy wrote: If I cannot trust my Breeder without this regulatory overkill I have done a very poor job of finding the right litter is how I see it.


I see lots of first and second time gun dog owners out there that don't know which way is up. I see something like this benefiting them more than the seasoned individual that knows what they are looking for.
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Re: NAVHDA UT Breeder's Award - DNA Testing

Postby AverageGuy » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:01 pm

[quote="Constructeur"

I see lots of first and second time gun dog owners out there that don't know which way is up. I see something like this benefiting them more than the seasoned individual that knows what they are looking for.[/quote]


Would seem to relate to Hicntry's Breeding thread.

A nice young fellow recently reached out to me to come see my dog, and visit about the breed. It was this summer and I was training Spud hard for his UT, so he got to see us work a few birds in the field while he was here. He ended up going a different route than I would have liked to see as far as the specific "Breeder" and litter he selected. It is exactly as Hicntry is stating in his thread. He selected the litter because the dogs were run through NAVHDA tests at a young age including VC. The "Breeder" is not even a "Breeder" in my eyes. Rather he is an acquirer of dogs from true Breeders, then sends them to professional trainers to be trained and run through the NAVHDA tests and the dogs are then promoted based on their test scores, with their younger than average age being the centerpiece of his marketing scheme. Hardly a mention of hunting. And worse no emphasis on coat, with the dogs being bred having poor coats.

A hunter who breeds some dogs will have a keen awareness of why coat quality matters, because they will have rolled out enough cockleburs and seen a dog with a poor coat suffering during a waterfowl hunt to know why coat matters. Just an easy example.

The test system is only a tool. The more the emphasis becomes on the test system the further we get from evaluating dogs by their consistent performance in the field hunting wild game.

I am not a Breeder. My current pup passed his UT Prize I at 18 months. That would not remotely cause me to breed him. But his work on wild birds in this his second season might be.

To each his own, but I am wary of the rapidly increasing emphasis on Hunt Tests as the measure of a dog for hunting wild game. I have too much experience with both to buy into that.
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