Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

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Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:11 pm

I couldn't believe my eyes. In this issue of Gun Dog there is an article on retrieving by their editor (One Of), Ed Bailey. This is his explanation of FF, word for word: "the dog is shocked until he goes in the desired direction and does the desired thing. Cessation of the shock is the dog's reward for doing the desired thing". He then continues in the next paragraph: "The shock, force trained dog will be doing the thing primarily to avoid the shocks, but not because he is cooperative. And, if faced with a new and different situation where the dog is required to do the job, independent of the handler, few can make the adjustment or care to". What a stupid, incompetent, S.O.B. The fact that Gun Dog pays the idiot to write to them should be an affront to dog all sporting dog people and is a true testament to the quality of the rag.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby orhunter » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:26 pm

Hummmmm... There is some truth to what he says. He uses the word, "shock" in a way that conveys the idea as being something dramatic but in truth, it could be nothing more than a tingle. Yes, poorly written but for those who understand, we get the message. But, we aren't the ones who need the message.

I agree. Gun Dog, is kinda lame these days. I bought an issue a month ago and didn't find anything to read. Bla, bla, bla.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:08 pm

Gonehuntin,

We finally agree!!!! What a moronic explanation. His explanation is so bad because he has no understanding of the process. What a disservice to dog training.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:48 am

orhunter wrote:Hummmmm... There is some truth to what he says. He uses the word, "shock" in a way that conveys the idea as being something dramatic but in truth, it could be nothing more than a tingle. Yes, poorly written but for those who understand, we get the message. But, we aren't the ones who need the message.

I agree. Gun Dog, is kinda lame these days. I bought an issue a month ago and didn't find anything to read. Bla, bla, bla.


Just what freakin' trurh do you see in what he says? There is nothing correct about that worthless post. P.O.S.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby orhunter » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:47 am

He implies the e-collar is a tool. He just isn't clear how to use it. An e-collar does "shock" the dog but the shock shouldn't be a shock to the dog. He leaves that part out.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:30 am

"He implies the e-collar is a tool. " More of a weapon.

An ecollar doesn't shock a dog, it stimulates. It's the same sensation in low-mid levels a Chiropractor uses on your muscles. Actually, it's a pleasant sensation at low levels. Not so pleasant at high levels. With todays modern ecollars and a competent user, there should never be a shock. In fact, I don't think the collar is capable of an actual shock. IMO.

The man is a total incompetent in any discussion of an force or mechanical stimulation method.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby daeion » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:12 am

I'm new to all of this but I guess I'm not seeing the issue here. Are you upset that he said shock instead of stimulate or is it something else? If you call a dog and it doesn't come, so you then use the collar until they are sitting next to you in order to turn it off, did not the dog come so that it would stop getting shocked/stimulated? I've hit myself with every lvl on the collar, and regardless of how low it was I never found it pleasant. I always thought people referred to the vibe function as stimulating the dog?
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Kiger2 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:34 am

Daeion,

He said this ""The shock, force trained dog will be doing the thing primarily to avoid the shocks, but not because he is cooperative. And, if faced with a new and different situation where the dog is required to do the job, independent of the handler, few can make the adjustment or care to""

That statement is clear evidence that he has no idea what FF is, or its benefits and even how to do it.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby daeion » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:17 am

Kiger2 wrote:Daeion,

He said this ""The shock, force trained dog will be doing the thing primarily to avoid the shocks, but not because he is cooperative. And, if faced with a new and different situation where the dog is required to do the job, independent of the handler, few can make the adjustment or care to""

That statement is clear evidence that he has no idea what FF is, or its benefits and even how to do it.


I get that that's what he said, but as I said I'm new to all of this, so I'm not understanding what's wrong with the statement.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:29 am

The dog does not perform a command to avoid "shocks", it performs the command because he has been taught and schooled in that command.

To say a dog is not cooperative because he is a collar dog is stupid. The greatest and most highly titled dog's are the most intelligent and cooperative dog's, no matter it they're trained with the ecollar, whip, or treats.

Any ecollar trained pointing dog works at distances to 500 yards from the handler, working with no direction and total awareness and cooperation.

A dog is no "shocked" until it runs the correct direction.

Totally stupid, poorly thought out, mis-leading post. Shows a total lack of understanding of dog training.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby daeion » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:05 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:The dog does not perform a command to avoid "shocks", it performs the command because he has been taught and schooled in that command.

To say a dog is not cooperative because he is a collar dog is stupid. The greatest and most highly titled dog's are the most intelligent and cooperative dog's, no matter it they're trained with the ecollar, whip, or treats.

Any ecollar trained pointing dog works at distances to 500 yards from the handler, working with no direction and total awareness and cooperation.

A dog is no "shocked" until it runs the correct direction.

Totally stupid, poorly thought out, mis-leading post. Shows a total lack of understanding of dog training.


So the issue is the part about the dog only doing what's it's told because it's getting shocked and this leaves no room for a dog to do it on their own?

Back to my example from earlier with the dog being told to come and it not, so I stimulate it until it's sitting next to me, as I was taught by the trainer, are you saying this is incorrect? Am I not reinforcing that they were taught to come sit next to me when told to come?
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby hicntry » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:31 pm

Some dogs react differently to shock or any stimulation.. I had a dog , a fantastic dog, and only one of 2 males that physically challenged me by grabbing me by the arm. He was a big dog and he had me from the wrist to the elbow so, I sucked it up and dropped my 230# on top of hip and proceeded to beat him about the head and face. When it was over, he got up and looked at me and went back into the yard on his own. The dog was a really dominate dog. He would never come to me, but, he wouldn't avoid me either and would stay laying down where he was and let me walk to him. Ok, we had to settle this, whose the boss thing. I borrowed an old tritronics collar that had the separate plugs for each setting. Some of you remember those. I took Higgins into the work shop as I had no idea how he would react . Put the collar on him. Backed off and called him. He didn't budge, just stared at me.....so I lit him up on the highest setting. I could see him stiffening up and he got about 3 inches taller but didn't budge. My next move was to borrow a second collar and I repeated everything with two collars lighting him up. The way his body stiffened up, I knew he was getting fried so I stopped. I still had to walk over to him to take the collars off and was ready to accept defeat. I took the collars off, turned and walked away. By golly he was right on my heels and stayed there as I walked around and went outside. I never had to call that dog twice again as long as he lived. I know that isn't how e collars work, but, dogs like people, are all different. Just reminiscing a bit about one of my all time favorite buds. LOL
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GFORCE » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:40 pm

I see no difference in how you apply stimulation ( discomfort ). Whether its ear pinch, lip pinch or collar stim doesn't matter. Its all uncomfortable to the dog and you apply it until it complies with your command. Force Fetch in and of itself says a lot. You are forcing the dog to do something it more than likely doesn't want to do. I do think his choice of words was unfortunate. When discussing FF or any other E collar training SHOCK should NOT be used. It is not PC.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby Camocruzr » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:49 pm

Poor choice of words by Ed. Do you all know who Ed Bailey is? He co-wrote the navda green book. He has some pretty heavy credentials when it comes to dog behavior.
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Re: Ed Bailey: Poorest understanding og FF Ever

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:17 pm

Camocruzr wrote:Poor choice of words by Ed. Do you all know who Ed Bailey is? He co-wrote the navda green book. He has some pretty heavy credentials when it comes to dog behavior.


Easy to write a book, harder to train a dog. Wolters made a fortune buying a pup and writing a book as he trained it. If that article shows his understanding of the ecollar, he has absolutely no understanding of collar training, no matter what his credentials are.
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