Study on coat type. WPG application

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Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Thu May 18, 2017 10:45 pm

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2897713/

It turns out that geneticist believe combinations of three gene locations pretty much determine the coats in all dogs.

So one of the breeds with limited info is the WPG. It is a complaint by many griff guys that the breed is moving away from a hunting coat. UC Davis actually has the ability to test the gene locations. Who would be interested in doing some testing to create a breed profile?
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Thu May 18, 2017 11:43 pm

Don't think it really matters anymore. Most breeders of most breeds of v dogs seem pretty comfortable with any type of coat they produce. If they were concerned about coat type the wide variation of coats in the v dog world would have been straightened out long ago.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Thu May 18, 2017 11:47 pm

I disagree, I know three local breeders that totally care about producing hunting coats.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 19, 2017 12:13 am

The breeder I got my griff from definitely cares about the coat of the dogs he breeds. In fact, when I flew out to Montreal to pick her up I was surprised that the the very first thing he said to me with his French accent when he brought me the pup to me was, "See, she has a very nice course coat!" When my pup gets soaking wet from the rain, swimming, or a bath I'm shocked at how quickly she dries out. I've heard the soft coats on these dogs is undesirable for hunting because the hair matts easily and they don't dry quickly so it causes them to get cold on those chilly days sitting in a blind while on a hunt.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Beech » Fri May 19, 2017 7:34 am

Yes, one of the reason I got a Griffon is coat type and effectiveness of the coat. It seems most prospective Grif owners dont like the long outer coat but do like one of moderate length. I specified to the breeder I wanted a medium length coat without much beard on my Grif and thats what I got. My friend specified a shorter coat from the same breeding parents and thats what he got. It appears that coat lengths do vary somewhat within the same litter so breeders do not have exact control over this. But its a trait that can be and should be strived for when breeding.

Variations of phenotype traits are seldom eliminated through selective breeding due to the incomplete control and knowledge of genotype and their interaction. Thats why you can seldom breed any specific trait out of the population despite intense efforts.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Fri May 19, 2017 7:42 am

hicntry wrote:Don't think it really matters anymore. Most breeders of most breeds of v dogs seem pretty comfortable with any type of coat they produce. If they were concerned about coat type the wide variation of coats in the v dog world would have been straightened out long ago.



Hard to say... but your right hicntry !!

Most v dog breeders don't care. Most take an average dog and breed it either for money or to have a sweet little litter of pups so the tree hugger buyers will sip starbucks and walk there dog at the dog parks. Most don't care about coat, conformation, ability, or temperament.

I think that the breeders that have been doing this for along time know what to look for and where to find it. I know that coat is the top 3 things I look for and have traveled to find it. With Griffons, especially, you will get a variety with in a litter and only pick the right type to potentially breed.

fun times....not
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Fri May 19, 2017 9:02 am

Go to Griffology, I think it's on Facebook or something like that. A lot of those dogs come from V-dog breeders simply by default because the dog breed is considered a v-dog. Has nothing to do with the dogs hunting attributes or the breeders intentions. In fact, 90% of Griff breeders probably don't own a shotgun, let alone test their dogs or have dogs from tested parents or from sound hunting stock. We can call them Griffons but we can't call them V-Dogs.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby hicntry » Fri May 19, 2017 9:54 am

"Variations of phenotype traits are seldom eliminated through selective breeding due to the incomplete control and knowledge of genotype and their interaction. Thats why you can seldom breed any specific trait out of the population despite intense efforts."

A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.....and justifies v dogs having every imaginal type of coat. I refer you to the second line of my signature.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby mastercaster » Fri May 19, 2017 10:05 am

I really like the length of my pup's coat right now. She's just shy of five months in age. As far as I know, the breeder I got my dog from likes dogs that have very little spotting on the body. I've never owned a griff before so just out of curiosity when does their coat stop growing?

Here she is having a siesta on the front seat of my fly fishing pram:

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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby JONOV » Fri May 19, 2017 10:06 am

GRIFF MAN wrote:
hicntry wrote:Don't think it really matters anymore. Most breeders of most breeds of v dogs seem pretty comfortable with any type of coat they produce. If they were concerned about coat type the wide variation of coats in the v dog world would have been straightened out long ago.



Hard to say... but your right hicntry !!

Most v dog breeders don't care. Most take an average dog and breed it either for money or to have a sweet little litter of pups so the tree hugger buyers will sip starbucks and walk there dog at the dog parks. Most don't care about coat, conformation, ability, or temperament.

I think that the breeders that have been doing this for along time know what to look for and where to find it. I know that coat is the top 3 things I look for and have traveled to find it. With Griffons, especially, you will get a variety with in a litter and only pick the right type to potentially breed.

fun times....not

I think that's true of about any hunting breed.

Field Bred golden retrievers look noticeably different than their show counterparts, both in bone structure and conformation.

Field Bred labs look different as well, although many of the show lines look obese to me, the British lines seem to strike a nice compromise.

GSP's, GWP's, VDD's that I've seen (I haven't seen many), etc, anyone that breeds with an eye first and foremost towards performance, it seems like many would breed a possum if it was healthy and performed exceptionally. Bench bred pointers look different than most of what Miller or Elhew produced (although they look much more similar to European or even Quebecois working Pointers.) So do Setters, although the Llewellin setters I've seen strike a nice balance.

Go to a NAVHDA meeting and you'll see DK's that are 80 lbs of muscle and 40 lb GSP's that look like a greyhound slipped in behind the woodshed.

I can imagine for a lot of breeders it inevitably means a compromise somewhere. Unless you can do what Hicountry did and keep 12+ dogs at a time and hold on to their progeny to evaluate for progress.

It helps if you've got a Brewery trust fund (Bob Wehle) or otherwise are willing to forego more common life goals to to assist you in doing it.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby Meridiandave » Fri May 19, 2017 11:09 am

Ok. Let me state a little more clearly what we are trying to do here. I am trying to create a genetic coat profile of the WPG. To do so we would need around 10 dogs although the more the better. I have personally been incommunication at the genetics lab at UC Davis and the can do the three tests for $85.00. If one wants to do the tan point testing it is a $100.00. The beauty of genetic testing is that we CAN know what is sitting in a recessive position. Therefore we can breed those genes out of the population, even if they are not expressed in the phenotypes.

This has nothing to do with Griffology, other breeders, etc. It has everything to do with creating a tool for us to use to make the breed better.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby AverageGuy » Fri May 19, 2017 11:25 am

Excellent nose, temperament, search - both water and upland, strong natural point, track, retrieve, health, conformation and coat. Pretty tall order in one dog. No wonder that litters full of perfect coats are hard to come by, but it starts with a willingness and a will to breed for it.

Some breeders are constantly trying to improve their product and are capable of evaluating and culling breeding prospects. A lot more are not. If a breed pool is already strong in NA it is time to tighten up on the confirmation and coat. But in order to do that you have to be honest about the need to improve coats...
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby orhunter » Fri May 19, 2017 11:43 am

A dog with all of the best hunting attributes can be held back by two separate traits working together, coat and size. Both will drag down a dog's athleticism and ability to handle rough terrain and the weather. The Griffon being the least heat tolerant of the various breeds needs all the help it can get and it's own body working against it, isn't acceptable.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby JONOV » Fri May 19, 2017 1:37 pm

orhunter wrote:A dog with all of the best hunting attributes can be held back by two separate traits working together, coat and size. Both will drag down a dog's athleticism and ability to handle rough terrain and the weather. The Griffon being the least heat tolerant of the various breeds needs all the help it can get and it's own body working against it, isn't acceptable.

Interesting...I wonder how much geography plays into this? I never thought about dogs in the heat, but now i live in the South. If a guy in International Falls Minnesota that grouse hunted and duck hunted had an 80 lb griffon, I doubt he would even notice. Down here, it would be like having a Newfoundland.
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Re: Study on coat type. WPG application

Postby GRIFF MAN » Fri May 19, 2017 3:01 pm

Meridiandave wrote:Ok. Let me state a little more clearly what we are trying to do here. I am trying to create a genetic coat profile of the WPG. To do so we would need around 10 dogs although the more the better. I have personally been incommunication at the genetics lab at UC Davis and the can do the three tests for $85.00. If one wants to do the tan point testing it is a $100.00. The beauty of genetic testing is that we CAN know what is sitting in a recessive position. Therefore we can breed those genes out of the population, even if they are not expressed in the phenotypes.

This has nothing to do with Griffology, other breeders, etc. It has everything to do with creating a tool for us to use to make the breed better.



I think your intention is true and couldn't agree more. I have two concerns...one I really believe good quality breeders are already doing this either with dna or with decision making by way of years of experience and knowing dogs. It will be impossible to eliminate an undesireable do to the fact that every weekend breeder is making a litter for all the wrong reasons...ugh !
Second, If you narrow down your breeding pool to one criteria, coats, you can end up with breeding issues and a limited breeding pool down the road as well.

Don't get me wrong. I think you have a valid point...

Image

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[imgImage][/img]

Would you call these hunting coats ?
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