Too many DD litters? Quality?

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:53 pm

Ok, Randumnut and Gh, neither of you have ever seen these pups, yet, you can see what they are. The first one over the gate is, in my mind, the most confident, In descending order, the rest will follow his lead. If you got to see them on a daily basis, the first one over the gate...is the first at everything. You use the strong to make the others more confident. Now, if you both can see what is going on from a very short, confusing video of pups you didn't raise....why does 3d's, and most others. find it so ludicrous that a breeder that raised over 200 litters of tightly line bred pups wouldn't know his pups. Maybe if I had quit breeding after two or three litters like 3d's, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference either....but you guys did it off a video.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby randomnut » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:20 pm

I'd imagine 3d's has seen plenty of Draht pups, and figure he sees the same thing most anyone would see in your video.

BTW, I'm new to the Drahthaar world, matter of fact, new to the dog world. I had dogs as a kid, but lacking funds in adult life, I waited 18 years to get another.

I picked a breeder only because he had pups coming and they weren't all reserved. Hearing all the great things about this breed, I wasn't worried. I let the breeder know what I was looking for, let him choose my pup for me, and didn't see the pup till I picked him up.

The breeder handed me a pup. I set him down and he was gone. Didn't care where I or the other pups were, he was headed down the road. I knew then that I had what I was looking for. That was less than two years ago.

Looking earlier, there's roughly 250 registered DD kennels in the US. Anybody know how many of these kennels had a litter last year?

I was figuring 125 or so litters.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:11 am

250 kennels. That's a bunch. I wonder how many are actually KENNELS and how many are breeders producing a liter each year or two.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Willie T » Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:32 am

Intriguing discussion. I believe most serious breeders, regardless of breed, in reality are using nice dogs and trying to maintain the level of quality they start with. The dogs produced with that end goal are the nice dogs most of us are satisfied with.
For a portion of my career I did research and development in genetics. To actually make genetics gains, the general combining ability for a specimen has to be calculated and hard choices have to be made. With a dog such as the DD that would entail testing the dog, then hunting it for a few years to evaluate the intangibles not covered in a test. Then evaluating the progeny of those selected in the same manner to re-evaluate the breeding stock. Often times a superior performer must be culled for a marginally lower performer that produces superior progeny.
For a breeder to actually leave his mark on a breed, a superior performer with a very high general combining ability has to end up in the right hands and be recognized. The breeder can then capture that superior performance and actually improve the breed or more specifically a line within a breed. The search for that foundation dog is what pushes the best breeders to bring in the best available from where ever it can be found. To actually find a true foundation dog is rare, and why when someone actually does, the dogs from his line are so sought after.
IMO "Improving the breed" is a buzz phrase that is often used but in reality is seldom pulled off.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby orhunter » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:01 am

Improvement comes in at the bottom, not so much the top. It raises (or should) the quality of the average dog.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:10 am

Improve the breed isn't a catch phrase really. I would classify it as a "feel good" phrase. It is that simple. Here is a five generation pedigree which is 5 of 14 generations of the line. To better understand, I didn't have to use Winchester much, because Serenity's Elizabeth was his dam and Higgins was his nephew An yes, you could close your eyes and pick. Breeding isn't akin to playing lotto or shouldn't be merely to get a few good uns because they got titles. You make the rules by actually breeding. Keep in mind, Winchester was too much dog to make a good dangerous game dog.....that is why he is there.

Image
Last edited by hicntry on Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Fri Feb 17, 2017 11:37 am

OMG, memories. LOL That pedigree is for a pup named 'Gunfighter". LOL I stole that name right out of Robert Wehles book Snakefoot years ago. Lost Gunfighter to parvo way back when I was leaning how to control it in an outside setting. Ended up having to keep them all exposed to it until they built up an immunity. I make it sound a lot simpler than it was....but it was just part of what breeding used to be. :wink:
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Misskiwi67 » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:07 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:250 kennels. That's a bunch. I wonder how many are actually KENNELS and how many are breeders producing a liter each year or two.


Compared to what?? GSPs? Labs?
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby Willie T » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:15 pm

Orhunter, I agree. To your point, a standout dog today has not changed much from what it was 40 years ago. The biggest change I see is in trends for different body types in some geographic regions.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby OBXDD » Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:33 pm

GONEHUNTIN' wrote:250 kennels. That's a bunch. I wonder how many are actually KENNELS and how many are breeders producing a liter each year or two.

According to the GNA newsletter between October 2015 and June 2016 there were 77 litters whelped in VDD GNA. You would have to dig through the breed book to see how many kennels are producing multiple litters each year. Off the top of my head I can only think of 3 or 4 kennels that produce 3 or more litters a year.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby 3drahthaars » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:02 pm

hicntry wrote:Ok, Randumnut and Gh, neither of you have ever seen these pups, yet, you can see what they are. The first one over the gate is, in my mind, the most confident, In descending order, the rest will follow his lead. If you got to see them on a daily basis, the first one over the gate...is the first at everything. You use the strong to make the others more confident. Now, if you both can see what is going on from a very short, confusing video of pups you didn't raise....why does 3d's, and most others. find it so ludicrous that a breeder that raised over 200 litters of tightly line bred pups wouldn't know his pups. Maybe if I had quit breeding after two or three litters like 3d's, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference either....but you guys did it off a video.


hicntry,

Never looked at nor commented on your video.

And, you most obviously haven't thoroughly read through or comprehended my posts and a lot of others for that matter.

It's obvious that you're looking more for a urinating contest than a thoughtful, constructive discussion, so the hydrant is all yours.

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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby hicntry » Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:05 pm

Willie T wrote:Orhunter, I agree. To your point, a standout dog today has not changed much from what it was 40 years ago. The biggest change I see is in trends for different body types in some geographic regions.
Willie


I will let y'all fret in peace over the inevitable after this last point. The genetics are still there so Willie is is absolutely right. The standout dog today is pretty much the same as they were 40 years ago, but, they are increasingly harder to come by. The good thing is....there will always be some there. This thread is reminiscent of the last presidential election. Everyone was sure Hillary 'lock her up" Clinton was in good shape and was going to be the next president......until she lost and it was too late.
Ignorance can be fixed but stupid is forever.
Law of Logical Argument - Anything is possible IF you don't know what you are talking about.

"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Jim Beam in one hand, Airedale in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:49 pm

hicntry wrote:Improve the breed isn't a catch phrase really. I would classify it as a "feel good" phrase. It is that simple. Here is a five generation pedigree which is 5 of 14 generations of the line. To better understand, I didn't have to use Winchester much, because Serenity's Elizabeth was his dam and Higgins was his nephew An yes, you could close your eyes and pick. Breeding isn't akin to playing lotto or shouldn't be merely to get a few good uns because they got titles. You make the rules by actually breeding. Keep in mind, Winchester was too much dog to make a good dangerous game dog.....that is why he is there.

Image



Now, THAT is developing a line!
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:50 pm

OBXDD wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:250 kennels. That's a bunch. I wonder how many are actually KENNELS and how many are breeders producing a liter each year or two.

According to the GNA newsletter between October 2015 and June 2016 there were 77 litters whelped in VDD GNA. You would have to dig through the breed book to see how many kennels are producing multiple litters each year. Off the top of my head I can only think of 3 or 4 kennels that produce 3 or more litters a year.


That is more in line with what I was thinking.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Too many DD litters? Quality?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:52 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
GONEHUNTIN' wrote:250 kennels. That's a bunch. I wonder how many are actually KENNELS and how many are breeders producing a liter each year or two.


Compared to what?? GSPs? Labs?


Since I only ever see a few actually advertised, that number surprises me. I thought there was much fewer.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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