Fleas!!!!

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Fleas!!!!

Postby orhunter » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:51 pm

Dog(s) have never had a problem with these critters till this year. Endless infestation. Have tried three or four topical products and one herbal edible. I think the neighborhood squirrels are the carrier? I wash dog blankets and beds regularly and have tried spraying them.

Dog needs help!!!!! Driving me and her nuts.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby MIgriffgirl » Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:40 am

I use Sentinel for my dogs. protects against Heartworm and Fleas. My Lab had fleas once then I started using Sentinel tabs and never had a problem since. I stop using in in the Winter months (against my vets recommendation) because I am in Michigan and it gets pretty darn cold here in winter so, I see no reason to use it then.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Chadwick » Fri Dec 09, 2016 11:40 am

Nexgard is the way to go.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Coveyrise64 » Fri Dec 09, 2016 2:55 pm

MIgriffgirl wrote:I use Sentinel for my dogs. protects against Heartworm and Fleas. My Lab had fleas once then I started using Sentinel tabs and never had a problem since. I stop using in in the Winter months (against my vets recommendation) because I am in Michigan and it gets pretty darn cold here in winter so, I see no reason to use it then.


If you understand the life cycle of a heart worm and why you use preventative you might re-think your decision.

https://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-ow ... orm-basics

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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby orhunter » Fri Dec 09, 2016 3:24 pm

We don't have heart worm in our area and I hate to treat for something that is of no concern.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:47 pm

Quality adulticide AND growth regulator is needed for every furry critter for a minimum of 3 consecutive months to break the life cycle.

Nexgard (Bravecto and Simparica, all similar) is my favorite because it kills adults before they can lay eggs. Complete control.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby DStanley » Fri Jul 06, 2018 2:18 am

I prefer traditional remedies to prevent flea infestation. We use essential oil shampoos. Pinewood sawdust repels fleas as well - it's especially good if your dog lives outdoors. We use chemical treatment only when the dog already has fleas. Drops and sprays can be applied In this case, but anti-flea pills have a lot of side effects, so we do not use them. Here are some tips on how to get rid of fleas. Hope it will come in handy.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Stretch » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:44 pm

A little bit of ivomec cattle pour on and put some sevens dust on dog bedding.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:09 am

Coveyrise64 wrote:
MIgriffgirl wrote:I use Sentinel for my dogs. protects against Heartworm and Fleas. My Lab had fleas once then I started using Sentinel tabs and never had a problem since. I stop using in in the Winter months (against my vets recommendation) because I am in Michigan and it gets pretty darn cold here in winter so, I see no reason to use it then.


If you understand the life cycle of a heart worm and why you use preventative you might re-think your decision.

https://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-ow ... orm-basics

cr


Pretty sure I understand the heartworm life cycle better than the article explained it. Sounds like it was written by those with a monetary interest in heartworm medication and treatment.

The most common heartworm preventative has been Ivermectin and its variants. It only kills the first stage of heartworms (microfilaria) after they get into the blood stream. This stage lasts right at 45 days, so if sufficient Ivermectin is administered within this period, the dog should never develop heartworms. Missing a monthly treatment by a couple of days isn't going to lead to heartworm infection. If your dog develops heartworms, and you have been using the commercial products, it may very well be that the low dose of Ivermectin in those medications is to blame. Collies and related breeds have a mutation which makes them susceptible to Ivermectin poisoning. Other breeds tolerate much higher levels of Ivermectin with no problems. But in order to be able to sell a product that is safe for all breeds, the amount of Ivermectin in canine heartworm medications is intentionally kept low. But this low dose is probably why dogs administered canine heartworm medications still develop heartworms. A much better, cheaper, and more effective way to prevent heartworms is to orally administer one tenth of a milliliter per ten pounds of body weight of 1% Ivermectin monthly. I've purchased 50 ml generic Ivermectin for $16. That's enough to treat my 63 pound dog for over four years! It's cheaper and more effective than what your vet has been selling for years.

Ok, so your dog develops heartworms. What should you do, opt for the expensive treatment? That's one option, but there are others. Since the worms only live for a couple of years, if you do nothing, and keep the dog on an effective heartworm medication regimen, the dog will not be re-infested, and the adult worms will eventually die.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:24 am

Study just published using actual infested homes in Florida - Bravecto was the best BY FAR.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:28 am

flitecontrol wrote:
Coveyrise64 wrote:
MIgriffgirl wrote:I use Sentinel for my dogs. protects against Heartworm and Fleas. My Lab had fleas once then I started using Sentinel tabs and never had a problem since. I stop using in in the Winter months (against my vets recommendation) because I am in Michigan and it gets pretty darn cold here in winter so, I see no reason to use it then.


If you understand the life cycle of a heart worm and why you use preventative you might re-think your decision.

https://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-ow ... orm-basics

cr


Ok, so your dog develops heartworms. What should you do, opt for the expensive treatment? That's one option, but there are others. Since the worms only live for a couple of years, if you do nothing, and keep the dog on an effective heartworm medication regimen, the dog will not be re-infested, and the adult worms will eventually die.


Ok, so your dog gets heart worms, and you are too cheap to treat because they “will eventually die” anyway.... meanwhile causing permanent scarring to the vasculature of the lungs, reducing your dogs performance abilities significantly. Is this REALLY what you think is acceptable??
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby orhunter » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:01 am

MissK: I was thinking the same thing. Dead heart worms can be worse than live ones.
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:18 pm

Misskiwi67 wrote:
flitecontrol wrote:
Coveyrise64 wrote:If you understand the life cycle of a heart worm and why you use preventative you might re-think your decision.

https://www.heartwormsociety.org/pet-ow ... orm-basics

cr


Ok, so your dog develops heartworms. What should you do, opt for the expensive treatment? That's one option, but there are others. Since the worms only live for a couple of years, if you do nothing, and keep the dog on an effective heartworm medication regimen, the dog will not be re-infested, and the adult worms will eventually die.


Ok, so your dog gets heart worms, and you are too cheap to treat because they “will eventually die” anyway.... meanwhile causing permanent scarring to the vasculature of the lungs, reducing your dogs performance abilities significantly. Is this REALLY what you think is acceptable??


While it's possible my dog may develop heart worms, it isn't likely since he gets a high dose of Ivermectin monthly. As a veterinarian you are well qualified to respond to these questions. Does the treatment for heart worms kill them outright or just flush them out of the dog? What's the difference, if any, in damage to the lungs if they are killed all at once, or gradually? What possible complications are there? How does the treatment affect the dog? Do the worms' body parts behave any differently or wind up in different locations versus natural death?

Have you sold heart worm products containing Ivermectin to your clients whose dogs subsequently developed heart worms? How do you explain this? Did these dogs have a light or heavy infestation? When they get heart worms, do you treat with melarsomine? If you treat with melarsomine, do you also provide pain medication to reduce the severe discomfort it causes? Do you use a two injection protocol or three? Why would you use one over the other? When a dog goes home after treatment, what instructions are given to the owner regarding care? What may happen if the owner doesn't diligently follow those instructions? Do you advise your clients prior to treatment about the degree of pain the dog will have and possible complications?

Do you think there may be pros for allowing the worms to die naturally? What are the cons? Is there any difference if the dog has a light infestation versus a heavy one?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby Misskiwi67 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 5:14 pm

Holy $#*! dude, I don’t have time for this.

I follow the American Heartworm Association guidelines.

The only cases I have ever treated had known missed doses (during a move/illness) or were not on any preventative at all.

If you use year-round prevention purchased from your veterinarian and your dog gets Heartworm while on prevention- the company will pay for treatment.

The only dog I have ever treated that had long-term complications from Heartworm disease was coughing prior to melarsamine - his complications are not from treatment but from the a PERMANENT damage to his lungs from the worms. He will be on low dose steroids for life.

Yes, we give pain medicine. What do you think this is, 1920????
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Re: Fleas!!!!

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:09 pm

I know owners who are adamant that they never missed or were late with a commercial heartworm preventative medication, yet their dogs developed heartworms. I'm in that group. Before he retired several years ago, my vet told me he was seeing increasing numbers of dogs on heartworm preventative that developed heartworms. When he told me my dog had a low infestation of heartworms, I was shocked and asked how that could have happened since I never skipped a dose. He said he was seeing it more and more often. He indicated just why this was so, was unknown, but there was speculation that heartworms were becoming resistant to Ivermectin due to the (low) levels in the medications. (See excerpt from American Heartworm Society (AHS) below for more on this subject.) If that is in fact accurate, the makers and sellers of low dose Ivermectin bear responsibility. The manufacturer will pay for treating a dog that develops heart worms while on their medication? How altruistic of them! Oh, wait, wasn't their product sold to prevent heartworms in the first place? Cynical me can't help but wonder if that may be an attempt to prevent a class action lawsuit by disgruntled purchasers of their products. Regardless, the dog still has heartworms and will suffer the consequences.

Since he was soon to retire, and was no longer going to profit from the sale of exorbitantly priced heartworm medication (my words, not his), my vet suggested that I begin dosing my dog with one tenth of a cc/ml of 1% liquid Ivermectin per ten pounds of body weight. I asked him if that was safe, and he assured me it was. Time has proven him correct. When I asked him what I should do about my dog's heartworms, he recommended that I do nothing since they would die in a few years anyway and the treatment could be hard on him. He probably wasn't a member of the AHS.

I wish you would explain why killing all the worms at one time with medication is always better and safer than allowing them to die naturally.

From the AHS, which is primarily for veterinarians, and sponsored by pharmaceutical companies (emphasis mine): (https://www.avma.org/News/JAVMANews/Pages/050715d.aspx) "In 2002, the Food and Drug Administration reported to the AHS that it had received claims of lack of efficacy among heartworm prevention products, said Dr. Tom Nelson, AHS president. In response, the AHS updated its guidelines in 2003 and recommended annual testing in certain U.S. regions. During the past few years, however, the society has found that some clients are still not adequately administering prevention products. In addition, Dr. Nelson suggested that heartworms could be developing a resistance to the products.

"The society believes compliance is a bigger issue than the resistance issue, but the only way we'll know is to have more frequent testing," Dr. Nelson said" .... "Many prevention products have a reachback, or an extended period of effectiveness, of six to eight weeks, Dr. Nelson said. If a client forgets to administer the product to the animal, or if the animal doesn't ingest it, the animal will be protected during the skipped month."

And from here: (https://www.heartwormsociety.org/images ... elines.pdf) Some Collies and other P-glycoprotein–deficient dogs are unusually sensitive to a variety of commonly used veterinary drugs, including some antidepressants, antimicrobial agents, opioids, immunosuppressants, and cardiac drugs. The macrocyclic lactones (Ivermectin and its allies )are also included in this list with toxicities being reported with overdosing or in combination with other P-glycoprotein–inhibiting drugs (Pulliam et al, 1985). These intoxications have occurred most often when concentrated livestock preparations of macrocyclic lactones are either accidentally ingested or overdosed because of human error in dosage calculation. This practice is an “off-label” use of the drugs and is discouraged. The standard chemoprophylactic dosages of all macrocyclic lactones have been shown to be safe in all breeds."

So we know that heartworm medications are safe in all breeds, and that Collies and similar breeds are susceptible to Ivermectin doses at levels that don't affect other breeds, but we don't know that the medications are consistently effective in preventing heartworms. That is why I give my dog "off label" Ivermectin, which is, IMO, more effective and a fraction of the cost of what vets sell.
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