How important do you consider "natural retrieve" in a v-dog?

[AzHusker]

I've always thought of "natural retrieve" as one indicator of general biddability or cooperation in a young pup, but with the success of modern force fetch programs, a person could make a retriever out of a shih-tsu.

How important do you all consider "natural retrieving instincts" to be in a v-dog? How important is "natural retrieving" history of parents in the selection of a good v-pup?

[Quill Gordon]

a person could make a retriever out of a shih-tsu.

Whoa, there's a lot more to it than that. Personally I like my hound to put in a full effort for the retrieve. So yes, I look for that quality

[Kyle]

but with the success of modern force fetch programs, a person could make a retriever out of a shih-tsu.

Don't believe that. They are lying to you!

How important do you all consider "natural retrieving instincts" to be in a v-dog? How important is "natural retrieving" history of parents in the selection of a good v-pup?

Natural retrieve is very important to me. Without it you do not have a reliable dog and you will spend the dogs whole life maintaining its training. That would not be enjoyable to me.
Kyle

[DrahtsundBraats]

How do you define natural retrieve??

[AzHusker]

How do you define natural retrieve??

Fair question. I guess I'd define it as the desire of a pup to pick thrown objects up and return them to his trainer. Basically something you can nurture along and enhance into the drive to retrieve in an adult. Yes to be finished with FF, but the drive is there.

I had a Brittany years ago that was a great hunter but she had zero desire to play fetch as a pup, and zero desire to retrieve as an adult. She pointed dead, - we were hunting quail in the desert - no need for water retrieves - so we got along fine. I do know there are breeders and trialers who could care less about retrieving as a trait in their pups. They are focused on before-the-shot exclusively.

How much 'innate desire to retrieve' does a dog need to have to be turned into an adult that retrieves enthusiastically? Conversely, how much 'lack of desire to retrieve' can be overcome by FF to create a serviceable retreiver?

I'm not talking DD's here - I think their retrieving prowess is well proven - referring more to the evaluation of some of the other 'upland' breeds...

[gwp4me2]

IMHO a v-dog should be a capable retriever out of the box. FF is to polish for passing tests, etc. Especially when birds are involved. When a v-dog sees a bird go down it should naturally have the desire and cooperation to go find it and bring it back. I wish dogs weren't bred who didn't. With FF being so common now we have a chance at losing the natural retrieve in the breeds.

[BirdDogger]

I agree with gwp4me2. Force fetching only makes the dog pick something up to bring it back. FF does not equate to the increased drive it takes while searching for the downed bird in a thick pile of cattails. The drive has to be there if you want a good waterfowler. Upland hunters can probably deal better with the dog that lacks the desire to retrieve. You're going to lose some birds if your dog lacks the desire to retrieve, though.

[AzHusker]

IMHO a v-dog should be a capable retriever out of the box. FF is to polish for passing tests, etc. Especially when birds are involved. When a v-dog sees a bird go down it should naturally have the desire and cooperation to go find it and bring it back. I wish dogs weren't bred who didn't. With FF being so common now we have a chance at losing the natural retrieve in the breeds.

That bolded statement is exactly my concern. Of course I want a field bred dog with high prey drive - but unfortunately, if that "natural retrieve" is not selected for breeding, it apparently goes away...if the venue doesn't demand it, the breeders have no reason to select for it.

I agree with gwp4me2. Force fetching only makes the dog pick something up to bring it back. FF does not equate to the increased drive it takes while searching for the downed bird in a thick pile of cattails. The drive has to be there if you want a good waterfowler. Upland hunters can probably deal better with the dog that lacks the desire to retrieve.

My Brittany had plenty of drive to find those birds - and she found them. Problem was that she stood there and pointed 'em. Oh - and she wouldn't get in the water if her fur was on fire, but that was a different problem...both contributed to by my inept training all those years ago.

Trust me, the trialers being bred do not lack for drive...pretty sure Yawallac will be along pretty soon to set the record straight on his pointers at least.

[dualgwp]

I want a puppy that naturally goes and gets things and brings them to me, and then willingly gives them up. I like a puppy that wants things in his mouth, that doesn't destroy his toys, that just is very happy to carry them around.

To me, a puppy like this is showing a want and willingness to share with me, to cooperate, to be a part of the team.

I have a puppy right now, who just like his daddy and his grandfather, loves to carry things and bring them to me. He also talks to me when he is fetching his things. It's pretty funny to hear him moaning and groaning while his mouth is stuffed full of a fuzzy toy tail wagging a mile a minute! His father does the same thing!
Dual

[BirdDogger]

My Brittany had plenty of drive to find those birds - and she found them. Problem was that she stood there and pointed 'em. Oh - and she wouldn't get in the water if her fur was on fire, but that was a different problem...both contributed to by my inept training all those years ago.

Ha ha! Yeah, I guess the dog just has to bring the bird back. No excuses. FF would have fixed your Brittany, but not all of its offspring (if there were any). Hunting dogs just need to retrieve and that's the end of any argument as far as I'm concerned. Breeding dogs that don't like to retrieve just creates problems for folks down the line.

[orhunter]

They aren't a versatile if the desire to fetch isn't bred in. A person should be able to create a very good nurtured fetch out of any good dog but many probably don't try because FF is part of their plans down the road. I look at FF as a last resort because I don't want to put my dogs through it. I'm a softie.

[AzHusker]

They aren't a versatile if the desire to fetch isn't bred in. A person should be able to create a very good nurtured fetch out of any good dog but many probably don't try because FF is part of their plans down the road. I look at FF as a last resort because I don't want to put my dogs through it. I'm a softie.

Pretty much what I was thinking but wanted to confirm. Guess you have to depend on a breeder's integrity for reports of whether an 8 week old pups' parents had fetch desire. I'm not sure how reliable pup tests would be at that tender age...

[yawallac]

...but unfortunately, if that "natural retrieve" is not selected for breeding, it apparently goes away...if the venue doesn't demand it, the breeders have no reason to select for it.

Then why are so many Pointers born with almost as much natural retrieving instinct as a versatile bred continental? I believe that the retrieving instinct is genetically combined with other traits being selected for. The desire to retrieve has not been selected for in AF Pointers for almost 150 years. If it has not been eliminated by now, than it must be connected to something.

I'm not suggesting that we shouldn't select individuals to be bred with that in mind. However, I'm not sure it matters all that much if we are selecting for an above average animal to be used in our breeding program. The retrieving instinct gene is probably coming along for the ride.

[crackerd]

On the money, yaw! Comes along for the ride, only to get "dismounted" by owners who fail to cultivate the natural retrieving gene (have you ever seen any puppy that didn't like to have something in its mouth?) until they suddenly rue having a (insert age here) dog without "natural retrieve" that needs to be force fetched...

A little asterisk: Force fetching ain't meant to be about putting retrieve in a dog.

MG

[LVS]

He brought this in the front door before I realised what he had. He didn't even set it down to pee. My DK is always picking things up and bringing them to me including game at a very young age.

edit to add that it is a large piece of maple firewood, kind of looks like a rock.....