To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

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To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:50 pm

Just wondering when training your dog did you do much or any shooting when you threw bumpers or dokkens for your dog to teach the dog to be steady to shot and wing ,,,,,,or did you you only shoot or fire off a shot when it involved teaching these skills when retrieving dead or live birds?

I've been thinking about getting one of the hand held dummy launchers that fires off the .22 cap. Do many of you guys use them and/or find them a valuable piece of training equipment? Since I'm in the city and can't raise pigeons or any other game bird I thought it might be a good tool but also wonder if the cops are going to show up at my door step if I decide to use it in town? LOL
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:02 pm

I have a Lucky Launcher II on a shoulder stock and use it quite a bit. It plays a role in teaching steadiness to shot before being sent to retrieve, marking at much longer distances than I can throw a bumper and gives the dogs good exercise swimming for long retrieves in the summer. I also shoot marks into heavy cover to teach the dog to persist in its search in the area of fall without looking to me for assistance.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:53 pm

AverageGuy wrote:I have a Lucky Launcher II on a shoulder stock and use it quite a bit. It plays a role in teaching steadiness to shot before being sent to retrieve, marking at much longer distances than I can throw a bumper and gives the dogs good exercise swimming for long retrieves in the summer. I also shoot marks into heavy cover to teach the dog to persist in its search in the area of fall without looking to me for assistance.


Do you like the one with the shoulder stock because the hand held one has more recoil than you'd like??
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Doc E » Fri Feb 22, 2019 9:03 pm

Average guy is right on the money.
Shoulder stock only .

.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:25 am

Doc E wrote:Average guy is right on the money.
Shoulder stock only .

.


Because,,,,,,,,
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:04 am

You CANNOT steady a dog without the gun shot. IF you use it in the city, the police will be all over you. You are actually firing a .22 blank load and firing a projectile. Don't do it. I agree with the shoulder stock. I don't think they make the pistols anymore. I have a retriever trainer mounted on an H&R 9 shot pistol. With it I can throw doubles, triples or quads without reloading. Don't think they're made anymore but not sure. Shop for the loads. You can go somewhere like Home Depot or near us, Fleet Farm and buy the loads in three or four different powers cheaper than on line. Dog's absolutely LOVE retrieving these. Mine will fire the bumpers 100 yards with heavy loads. Go for it but use it out of town.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mtbirder » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:50 am

Regarding the steady to wing and shot thing, if everyone on this thread participates in trials or any other formal competition - nevermind:
As a hunter only, I have no use for the steady to wing and shot thing. I am sure that one's method of hunting matter's here. I usually hunt alone with my dog(s), hunting in MT, very very large public or private lands for wild birds is the norm.
That being said, my dogs are well behaved pointers that know what to do when bird scent hits their nose. Once on point they hold until the shot, but watching the bird(s) as the shot happens, they tend to head to, if the birds falls, the place of the drop. If I miss :shocked!: they run around nearby and will return upon hailing. I actually like my girls to be on the bird as it's falling or at least be at the drop as soon as possible - that leads to them hunting dead or on the scent of the wounded runner quickly - thus better ensuring successful retrieval. Some may question "what about more birds flushing at the release of the dog from the point". This really hasn't been an issue, as I have often had s 2'nd shot readily in this circumstance, and if it does cost me a double - so what. Just means I get to be out in the field with my dogs, the birds, the land, the sights, the smells, all the good stuff - longer.
As stated, I realize this probably is unacceptable to competitors, but for us strictly hunter types - if the hunting style is similar to the conditions I described - I find this works just fine.
Just one (getting) older bird dog guy's idea.......
As an aside, how many on here are purely hunters - no trials or competitions whatsoever??
Last edited by mtbirder on Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby flitecontrol » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:54 am

mtbirder wrote:As an aside, how many on here are purely hunters - no trials or competitions whatsoever??


Why not start a poll in a separate thread?
I've had several really good dogs, but none were perfect. Neither am I, so keep that in mind!
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mtbirder » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:05 am

flitecontrol wrote:
mtbirder wrote:As an aside, how many on here are purely hunters - no trials or competitions whatsoever??


Why not start a poll in a separate thread?


No disrespect meant to the OP nor this thread. Just threw that out there. Figured the very few regulars who reply most to posts might chime in here. Wrong question here, maybe.
Possible forum etiquette violation accepted and acknowledged.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:18 am

mtbirder wrote:Regarding the steady to wing and shot thing, if everyone on this thread participates in trials or any other formal competition - nevermind:
As a hunter only, I have no no use the steady to wing and shot. I am sure that one's method of hunting matter's here. I usually hunt alone with my dog(s), hunting in MT, very very large public or private lands for wild birds is the norm.
That being said, my dogs are well behaved pointers that know what to do when bird scent hits their nose. Once on point they hold until the shot, but watching the bird(s) as the shot happens, they tend to head to, if the birds falls, the place of the drop. If I miss :shocked!: they run around nearby and will return upon hailing. I actually like my girls to be on the bird as it's falling or at least be at the drop as soon as possible - that leads to them hunting dead or on the scent of the wounded runner quickly - thus better ensuring successful retrieval. Some may question "what about more birds flushing at the release of the dog from the point". This really hasn't been an issue, as I have often had s 2'nd shot readily in this circumstance, and if it does cost me a double - so what. Just means I get to be out in the field with my dogs, the birds, the land, the sights, the smells, all the good stuff - longer.
As stated, I realize this probably is unacceptable to competitors, but for us strictly hunter types - if the hunting style is similar to the conditions I described - I find this works just fine.
Just one (getting) older bird dog guy's idea.......
As an aside, how many on here are purely hunters - no trials or competitions whatsoever??


No problem!

When I had my mother/daughter brittany combo this was exactly how I hunted back in the 80s and 90s, mostly because I didn't know about wanting a dog to be steady while hunting wild pheasants back then. I will say one thing,,,,,I never lost a bird!

At that time I NEVER hunted any type of waterfowl. Now that I've added waterfowl to my young griff's repertoire I would definitely like her to be steady while in a blind with me, a mutt hut, or if I put her in a layout blind. I probably won't be over concerned while hunting upland unless she starts to chase.

And to answer your question, I''ve always been just a hunter. That being said, if we had a NAVDHA chapter in out province,,,,who knows? Maybe I wouldn't mind doing a test or two because I think my dog could do quite well. Don't think at this time in my life I'd travel from state to state to do tests because I have quite a bit of other stuff going on in my life,,,,but never say never!
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mtbirder » Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:32 am

My response was biased. As being an upland hunter only, I did not take into consideration water dogs. my bad.
I actually sometimes think I should get into the waterfowl world to expand opportunity.
But, you guys will get no competition from me - can't stand eating duck, and am way to addicted to wearing out boot leather to wait for birds to come to me.....
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby mastercaster » Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:12 pm

mtbirder wrote:My response was biased. As being an upland hunter only, I did not take into consideration water dogs. my bad.
I actually sometimes think I should get into the waterfowl world to expand opportunity.
But, you guys will get no competition from me - can't stand eating duck, and am way to addicted to wearing out boot leather to wait for birds to come to me.....


Most everyone I know who hunts waterfowl turns their duck and goose meat into sausage. You can't tell the difference between pepperoni made from those birds or deer. I also use duck breast meat for dog treats. My griff loves the stuff!

But there's no question about the dog having to remain steady to shot when it comes to waterfowl hunting!
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Willie T » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:27 pm

mtbirder wrote:Regarding the steady to wing and shot thing, if everyone on this thread participates in trials or any other formal competition - nevermind:
As a hunter only, I have no use for the steady to wing and shot thing. I am sure that one's method of hunting matter's here. I usually hunt alone with my dog(s), hunting in MT, very very large public or private lands for wild birds is the norm.
That being said, my dogs are well behaved pointers that know what to do when bird scent hits their nose. Once on point they hold until the shot, but watching the bird(s) as the shot happens, they tend to head to, if the birds falls, the place of the drop. If I miss :shocked!: they run around nearby and will return upon hailing. I actually like my girls to be on the bird as it's falling or at least be at the drop as soon as possible - that leads to them hunting dead or on the scent of the wounded runner quickly - thus better ensuring successful retrieval. Some may question "what about more birds flushing at the release of the dog from the point". This really hasn't been an issue, as I have often had s 2'nd shot readily in this circumstance, and if it does cost me a double - so what. Just means I get to be out in the field with my dogs, the birds, the land, the sights, the smells, all the good stuff - longer.
As stated, I realize this probably is unacceptable to competitors, but for us strictly hunter types - if the hunting style is similar to the conditions I described - I find this works just fine.
Just one (getting) older bird dog guy's idea.......
As an aside, how many on here are purely hunters - no trials or competitions whatsoever??


OP- Shoulder mounted is the way to go. Hand held works fine but the shoulder mounted launcher encourages the dog to mark off the gun.

Mtbirder, with my versatile dog (PP) I purely hunt it. Upland and waterfowl as well as tracking. I prefer a dog that is steady till sent. If hunting with other dogs, I like to see a dog that honors when the other dog is sent to retrieve. I also think I get better retrieving work with respect to marking multiples from a steady dog, as opposed to locking onto one and giving chase. On multiples, the ability to send a steady dog after the bird of choice first, at times is advantageous enough to me, that I train for it.
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Sooty42 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:54 pm

mastercaster wrote:
mtbirder wrote:My response was biased. As being an upland hunter only, I did not take into consideration water dogs. my bad.
I actually sometimes think I should get into the waterfowl world to expand opportunity.
But, you guys will get no competition from me - can't stand eating duck, and am way to addicted to wearing out boot leather to wait for birds to come to me.....


Most everyone I know who hunts waterfowl turns their duck and goose meat into sausage. You can't tell the difference between pepperoni made from those birds or deer. I also use duck breast meat for dog treats. My griff loves the stuff!


Leave the skin on the breast and thighs then dry age it in the fridge for 2-5 days depending on the size of the duck (it mellows it out). Cook in a pan of melted butter skin side down first until crispy (it should be sizzling similar to bacon), salt skin immediately after flipping, then cook other side until rare or medium rare. It will taste similar to steak and the crispy skin is awesome. My kids love it!
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Re: To shoot,,,,,or not to shoot?

Postby Bruce Schwartz » Sun Feb 24, 2019 5:39 pm

OP, I use hand held retrieve-r-trainers and get charges from Home Depot ( Ramset .22's #3). #2's are undependable and the #4's are too hot for hand held. If you're using hand held it's best to turn your hand so the shock is not on the thumb. I like the hand held units as I can carry one or two in my training vest. I've never had a shoulder mounted launcher. As far as dummies go the canvas ones are good for about 40 yards and the rubber oval ones good for 60-70 yards. They are useful for marks, diversions, dead bird search, steadiness, etc.
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