Dog Laying down on Whoa

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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby GONEHUNTIN' » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:32 pm

Don't wait too long. You may have to put pressure on him bird hunting. Not all pointing dog's point and a lot of GWPs have more retrieve than point in them.
I just hate seeing birds die of natural causes unless I'm that natural cause.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby orhunter » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:08 pm

Here in Orygun, 200/300 yards isn’t self hunting. That’s what we call a good dog. KJ would call that a boot polisher.

“Easy to train.” Maybe what you are trying to train is already built in and the dog is confused when you try to teach? But, this is internet speculation. Good dogs have a whole lot more going for them than some folks realize. This might be the best dog you ever had?
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby ryanr » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:01 am

Double post
Last edited by ryanr on Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby ryanr » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:02 am

orhunter wrote:Here in Orygun, 200/300 yards isn’t self hunting. That’s what we call a good dog. KJ would call that a boot polisher.

“Easy to train.” Maybe what you are trying to train is already built in and the dog is confused when you try to teach? But, this is internet speculation. Good dogs have a whole lot more going for them than some folks realize. This might be the best dog you ever had?


Whether it's 200-300 yards or just 50 yards I think self-hunting is self-hunting. If the dog us blowing off the hunter and doing things just for itself on its terms in the field, I'd say the dog is self-hunting.

Having a now 6yr old DD that was a champion self-hunter and bird buster (the ironic thing is he has a beautiful, really intense point too) I would tell the OP to seriously consider ONLY using pigeons in launchers until the dog is reliably steady. And launch that bird the second you feel the dog has scent (or is getting to close to the bird.) If you can't get pigeons then don't use any birds in the field, the dog's not going to forget how to hunt. Also, strongly consider working on the retrieve now instead of steadiness. Do force fetch now and come back to steadiness after and that way the retrieve of the bird is a reward for steadiness and that may aid you some in achieving steadiness.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby JONOV » Fri Feb 08, 2019 3:26 pm

My dog was **similar.** I attribute it to too many crummy quail (pen birds.) He's inherently very cooperative but I think that the ability to take them out combined with the daily off leash walks in the woods in the forest preserve chasing bunny rabbits and foxes made things hard.

I trained around it...One NAVHDA chapter nearby uses launchers a bunch for their training days. Another I worked on simply restraining him when we'd get up on point.

I agree that this is yard work, or modified yard work, where you need to control the situation. Simply placing 3 quail interspersed in a field isn't going to fix it.

Although some consider the book archaic, the NAVHDA green book procedures for steadying that might work, namely putting a bird in a net in front of a dog on a table to whoa it. So it considers the "whoa" and associates it with the bird.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby AverageGuy » Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:44 pm

hunter94, When I asked where you lived I was hoping by some miracle you would be close enough to make use of my pigeons. No such luck there.

I expect using pen raised quail is contributing to your dog chasing the birds in a big way because they fly low, and go to ground in short enough distances begging a dog to chase and catch them. Strong flying homing pigeons or ferals will get up and gone and do not invite the dog to chase nearly as much and they do not fly to the ground exhausted where they can be caught.

I agree with Ryan's advice to stop the bird work until you can get some pigeons. It could be that you will need to dechase this dog and teaching the Whoa and then releasing the downwind bagged pigeons at a distance is a good way to go about it. Move closer as the dog remains steady at the initial longer distances. Again, I would not do this work until the Whoa command is trained and the dog complies in many situations away from birds first.

On the green book approach of lowering a bird in a bag in front of the dog on the training table. It is an approach some use. It would be my last resort as I fear that dogs trained that way have a real potential to loose their style when pointing birds. Others may disagree and that is fine if they do. I really like as much style and intensity in my dog's points as possible and so I present birds in a manner as close to a wild bird as possible and let the dog work the bird.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby ANick » Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:12 pm

I tripped over some YouTube that I'd offer up as fodder for the conversation. This is a two part, the 'Part 1' starts with a Shorthair that really needs to go back to puppy basics, the 2nd a Wirehair pup that reportedly got overtrained. The 2nd pup carries over into the 'Part 2' and is a pretty nice presentation of training work, with some pretty good tips. The second half of 'Part 2' takes up a trained dog in for a tune up, with some great discussion on the, 'How to'.

Overall, I liked the discussion through the session but I can see where the filming process (including that discussion) could have an impact on the flow of the training as well the results. The advertising in the videos can be dodged by clicking ahead btw. Or watch them should you desire.

Anyway, the links Part I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmO-ng2zMwU and Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-vzJW4f5mQ

Really just putting this out for conversation points... and watching snow ..
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby orhunter » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:35 pm

Ryan: Some folks confuse good range with self hunting. Wanted to clear that up, they are not the same.

Agree with AG on a bagged bird on the training table. We don’t get style and intensity with a trained point.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby hunter94 » Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:01 pm

AverageGuy wrote:hunter94, When I asked where you lived I was hoping by some miracle you would be close enough to make use of my pigeons. No such luck there.

I expect using pen raised quail is contributing to your dog chasing the birds in a big way because they fly low, and go to ground in short enough distances begging a dog to chase and catch them. Strong flying homing pigeons or ferals will get up and gone and do not invite the dog to chase nearly as much and they do not fly to the ground exhausted where they can be caught.

I agree with Ryan's advice to stop the bird work until you can get some pigeons. It could be that you will need to dechase this dog and teaching the Whoa and then releasing the downwind bagged pigeons at a distance is a good way to go about it. Move closer as the dog remains steady at the initial longer distances. Again, I would not do this work until the Whoa command is trained and the dog complies in many situations away from birds first.

On the green book approach of lowering a bird in a bag in front of the dog on the training table. It is an approach some use. It would be my last resort as I fear that dogs trained that way have a real potential to loose their style when pointing birds. Others may disagree and that is fine if they do. I really like as much style and intensity in my dog's points as possible and so I present birds in a manner as close to a wild bird as possible and let the dog work the bird.


thanks guy, i think a lot of your suggestions make sense. the pup is actually from a breeder in Orygun, so it would make sense he was bred to be a big running chuckar dog. in pheasant country where i hunt, a dog at 300 yards or more is a handicap. birds usually won't hold for the gunner to get to the dog and without a GPS you can't even find him.......grass up to your ass!
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:11 am

hunter94 wrote:thanks guy, i think a lot of your suggestions make sense. the pup is actually from a breeder in Orygun, so it would make sense he was bred to be a big running chuckar dog. in pheasant country where i hunt, a dog at 300 yards or more is a handicap. birds usually won't hold for the gunner to get to the dog and without a GPS you can't even find him.......grass up to your ass!


I understand the challenge well. I have had a few wild childs myself. I love em. An 11 month old pup fired up on birds and getting out will ultimately be a great thing once you get the pup reliably holding a point on the birds it finds. Which you will. You have all spring and summer now to work on it which is plenty of time.

Have you checked into the closest NAVHDA Chapter? Might be some members who have some pigeons you can train with. Any Local Pro Trainers around you can tap? Sometimes you can buy some 1:1 time with a good pro and it has always been extremely beneficial to me when I did. Another option to that is to get into a Clinic. If you arrived at a Clinic with your pup having a well trained Whoa command in situations other than birds in place, it is highly likely that 4 day clinic with a pro would have your pup pointing and holding a point when you left.

Work on getting the pup finding birds and holding a point, train a strong recall in all situations and the range issue will work itself out. Likely you will be far less concerned about it once you pup holds a point and allows you walk in front to flush and shoot birds. And the pup will learn the value you bring to the equation and it's cooperation will grow because of it.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby hunter94 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:24 am

long time NAVHDA member, going to NA test this beast in 2 weeks. hope he doesn't run off the course!
everyone i know struggles to find pigeons here, end up with quail.
i have had two 112 NA dogs in the past, so i hope i know a little about training?
i may be obsessing over his development, he may be that one that is slow to come around, but otherwise slow ain't his speed!
he has a strong prey drive, will point fine, but starts creeping in soon after and chases hard after the release..
there is enough here (thanks to all who replied) to turn him around, reps, reps, reps.
i think he understands all the commands, but he is like a teenage boy at his first prom...
he is wired!
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby AverageGuy » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:54 am

Sounds like he is in good hands and a great pup. Best of Luck.

PS:

Surprised none of your NAVHDA chapter members have a coop of homing pigeons. Homers in launchers, set off the moment your pup took its first creeping step after pointing would likely go a long ways to moving your pup forward at this stage. And the De-chase released bag pigeons exercise is likely needed as it sounds like he is enjoying the chase (as the goods one often do). I would ask anyone and everyone, including local pro trainers where they are getting their pigeons and see if any leads turn up.

I took some harassment from idiots but I also turned up an excellent source of feral pigeons the last time I posted in Craigslist looking to buy some pigeons. Before I built and stocked my pigeon coops, I put chicken wire around a couple of large wire dog kennels, set them on saw horses with dowel rods ran through the kennel for perches and set them in my machine shed. I have about $150 dollars in the setup. I could buy and keep 30 pigeons at a time using that setup and that volume makes driving to get them more feasible. I was driving 3 hours one way to buy them, paying $4-5 a piece, but could train a month with 30 feral pigeons which at $150 a month is way cheap in the scheme of training fees.

Just trying to be helpful.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby orhunter » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:22 pm

300 yard pheasant dog wouldn’t make me happy either. Half that at the most.

Trapping your own pigeons is easy if you have a local population. We have a house In Astoria OR and I could go up to the Safeway parking lot, throw out some seed and get a dozen in one scoop of a fishing net. Highway overpasses where they roost is another possibility as well as city parks.

My second Griff had a great first season, thought she was dialed in. Over the following summer, she’d forgot most everything and took a couple weeks to get her under control that second year. Kind of embarrassing when Bruce Schwartz come down from AK to hunt and my dog was anything but steady. I called it, the terrible two’s, like raising kids.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby Meridiandave » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:17 pm

I like the suitcase method for teaching whoa. It would be very difficult for the dog to sit down. You can by everything you need at the local hardware and pet store.
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Re: Dog Laying down on Whoa

Postby blue04 » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:21 pm

If the "suitcase method" is a using two leads, with one clipped to a flat collar and the other around the dog's flank, it's exactly what I do. I works very well. I actually train heel and whoa at the same time.
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